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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 30 November 2025
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Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. Are the minutes available publicly?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

You can get back to us with more detail on that, if that would be useful.

I turn to Craig Hoy, who has some questions to put.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

That would indeed be very helpful.

Let me deal with a contemporary issue that has its roots in a bit of history, namely, private finance initiative and public-private partnership contracts. I cannot remember whether it was in the programme for government, but I am reminded of when the First Minister announced—fairly recently—that the 24-bed East Ayrshire community hospital was going to be taken out of PFI and brought back into the public sector, as almost an early glimpse of what was to come.

We know that those contracts are coming up towards the end of their period of private operation. We are interested in understanding a bit more about how that is working and what the plans are to manage that transition. The 24-bed East Ayrshire community hospital is small, but there are some big projects with presumably quite significant revenue implications for the public sector coming towards the end of their life in the private sector. Are they all coming into the public sector? What will that look like? What plans does the Government have to manage that transition and run those assets after they have been transferred?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone back to the 15th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee, as we resume in public session. Under item 3, the committee will look at major capital projects. We get regular reports on the performance of such projects. This morning, we are keen to examine their governance and accountability arrangements. I am pleased that we are joined by a panel of five to help us understand how those governance and accountability issues work.

From the Scottish Government, I welcome Helen Carter, who is deputy director of infrastructure and investment; Nick Ford, who is director of Scottish procurement and property; Alan Morrison, who is deputy director of health infrastructure, investment and personal protective equipment; and Andrew Watson, who is director of budget and public spending. Last but not least, I welcome Lawrence Shackman, who is director of major projects at Transport Scotland.

We have not asked you to make an opening statement. If it is okay with you, Andrew Watson, we will use you as a conduit. Obviously, there will be questions that relate to particular areas of work, which you should feel free to direct. If other members of the panel want to come in at particular points, they should indicate to me or the clerks and we will do our best to bring you in. I will begin by asking the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, to open the questions.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I have one final question, for the moment. Helen Carter, Nick Ford and Andrew Watson are on the IIB. Who is on the infrastructure advisory group?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Are they published on the Scottish Government website?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

I am conscious of time, but Colin Beattie is next.

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

For the avoidance of doubt, this is not an unscheduled proxy session on the delivery of vessels 801 and 802.

Let us return to governance and accountability. Andrew Watson mentioned that he had given us a written submission in advance, which is very useful to us. In one part of the paper, which struck me, he says:

“Infrastructure strategy is developed through a range of mechanisms.”

I note from the paper that there is a Scottish Futures Trust, an infrastructure investment board, an Infrastructure Commission for Scotland, an infrastructure advisory group and, as Alan Morrison has just told us, a departmental infrastructure board. How do those all fit together? What are their respective roles? Is there duplication? Is the system overly bureaucratic or does it work perfectly well?

Public Audit Committee

Major Capital Projects: Accountability and Governance Arrangements

Meeting date: 19 May 2022

Richard Leonard

You mentioned the Scottish Futures Trust, which is listed in your submission as being a “key advisor” to the IIB. The IIB also has an infrastructure advisory group. Who is on the SFT and who is on the advisory group? Why are their roles different and what advice do they give you that is different? Is it not simply duplication?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of South Lanarkshire College”

Meeting date: 12 May 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed, Auditor General. I also thank you for reminding us that active investigations are still taking place, which might make for some limitation in relation to the areas that we can probe into this morning. However, there is still an awful lot in the published report that we will seek further evidence on in the next hour or so.

The deputy convener of the committee, Sharon Dowey, will open up the questions.