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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 September 2025
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Displaying 3314 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

The Audit Scotland report talks about the failure to build any relationship in the shared endeavour between the Scottish Funding Council and Skills Development Scotland. In fact, in its report, Audit Scotland said that there were “tensions between the agencies”. That has gone on for at least four years between, let us remind ourselves, two major Government-funded organisations. I think that the joint budget for the two is £2 billion of public money a year; yet, because of tensions between the organisations, there has been a failure to deliver. Can you explain that?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

It runs a bit deeper than that, does it not? Those things happened over a period of years during which you have not always been the director general responsible; I respect that. However, the criticisms by Audit Scotland go as far as to say that there was a complete absence of strategic intent or a performance management framework to make progress. Why on earth were those fundamental elements not put in place?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Please do.

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Certainly—I will bring you back in a bit later on.

Director general, can I return us to the Audit Scotland report? Weak governance is one of the glaring failings that is highlighted in the report. Paragraph 24 talks about a proposal to alter the framework from there being a joint SFC and SDS skills committee to the creation of an Enterprise and Skills Strategic Board skills committee. However, the report tells us that

“this did not happen because of the statutory requirement for the existing committee to be chaired by a SFC board member. No alternative governance structure was introduced at ESSB level, and the joint SFC and SDS Skills Committee has not met since August 2017. The SFC consolidated the Joint Skills Committee with another of its committees, which has since become the SFC’s Skills, Access, Enhancement and Learning Committee. SDS does not sit on this committee.”

Can you tell us why the ESSB did not seek to set up an alternative governance structure, and why the Scottish Government presided over such a situation?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

The Auditor General was asked about that during the 10 February evidence session. He said:

“The pandemic is one factor, but it is not the sole factor. I draw the committee’s attention to exhibit 3 in the report, in which we track the chain of events dating back to 2016 and 2017”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 10 February 2022; c 12.]

Again, I make the point that we can accept that there will be errors from time to time, but there seems to be consistent error and failure to deliver in the alignment of skills. I have not even spoken about the appointment of a permanent skills alignment director, which was a pivotal role that was never properly filled.

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. That concludes our questions for this session. I think I said at the start that it was a section 22 report. It was a section 23 report, but contained some trenchant criticism nonetheless. Sharon Dowey referred to the fact that this is apprenticeship week and there have been numerous references to last week’s publication of the national strategy for economic transformation, which said:

“A skilled population is fundamental to business productivity and economic prosperity.”

For those reasons it is important that we get these things right and we do not preside over some pretty fundamental—“systematic” is a word that has been used wisely this morning—failures.

The only other point I would make is that we will of course have an opportunity to look at the shared outcomes framework document in due course, and we shall do that. I am quite sure that the Auditor General will want to have a look at it as well. We will do that and we may well come back to you with further questions, Mr Griffin. That leads me to my final point: if we had known about the timing of this important document, which is absolutely central to the discussions that we have had this morning, we could have rescheduled this evidence session so that we could have taken full account of it. I hope that that is one of the things that you and your team will think about after leaving this meeting.

I will draw the public part of the meeting to a close and thank the director general for his evidence. I also thank Helena Gray and Adam Reid, and Helen Webster, who joined us online.

10:12 Meeting continued in private until 11:16.  

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

I will now invite Craig Hoy to ask questions.

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Is there a reason why it was so late?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for Skills”

Meeting date: 10 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Willie Coffey has questions about monitoring and reporting arrangements.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 3 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Sharon Dowey has a series of questions to put.