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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 September 2025
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Displaying 3314 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you for that opening statement. I will invite committee members to come in with questions, but I will begin by reflecting on what the Auditor General told the committee when he appeared on 3 March to talk about the social care briefing that he produced. In his opening statement, he said that

“The Scottish Government needs to take a pragmatic approach and set out what can be improved now, without legislation, while taking time to determine where the national care service can add most value.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 3 March 2022; c 3.]

You have both spoken about the statement of intent and joint partnership proposals, but what is happening right now? What is your action plan and what steps are you taking at the moment?

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Richard Leonard

Sharon Dowey asked about commissioning. I would like to ask Caroline Lamb, who is the chief executive of NHS Scotland as well as the director general of health and social care, about the commissioning model, which is not the model for the national health service, is it? Arguably, there would be an outcry if we went down that route as the model for delivering NHS services.

As part of your discussions with COSLA, and looking to the national care service of the future, are you looking at alternatives to a competitive tendering model, which is how the commissioning model has developed?

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Richard Leonard

That is fine. That is clear.

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Richard Leonard

In those answers, I did not hear anybody talk about going beyond commissioning or about conversion to more of a national health service model for the national care service. However, we are pressed for time, so I will move on.

We have covered a lot on the workforce, but I have a parting question on that. Caroline Lamb, you mentioned the uprating of the hourly rate of pay from April this year. Do you have a timetable showing where you expect rates of pay to go in the next five years? That is the time horizon that you spoke about for the 25 per cent uplift in resources.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Richard Leonard

I think that other members want to come in on that point. On the point that Gill Miller made, I direct this first to the Auditor General: why is there no documentary evidence? Is it hidden, is it missing or does it simply not exist?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Richard Leonard

Welcome back to the second half of this morning’s meeting. Agenda item 3 is our first consideration of the Audit Scotland report into arrangements for the delivery of vessels 801 and 802. I welcome to the meeting the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle, who is joined by a team of three people from Audit Scotland: Antony Clark, interim director of performance audit and best value; Angela Canning, audit director; and Gill Miller, audit manager, performance audit and best value.

In addition, I welcome Rhoda Grant, who is an MSP for the Highlands and Islands and who is taking part in the evidence session remotely. Rhoda, if you want to come in at any point, please indicate that by typing R in the chat function and we will do our best to bring you in.

To begin, I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement. After his statement, members will ask a series of questions. If we do not cover all the ground that we need to this morning, we might need to have a second evidence session on this report with the Auditor General.

Public Audit Committee

“Drug and alcohol services: An update”

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Richard Leonard

The next item on our agenda is consideration of Audit Scotland’s recent briefing on drug and alcohol services, which is an update report on some work that Audit Scotland has looked at over a decade or more.

We are joined in the committee room by Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General for Scotland, and, from Audit Scotland, Antony Clark, interim director of performance audit and best value, and Jillian Matthew, senior manager, performance audit and best value.

I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 11th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. I remind members, witnesses and staff that social distancing arrangements must be respected and that, if you move around, enter or leave the room, you should wear a face covering. However, you do not have to wear one while you are with us at the table.

Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business in private. Do we agree to take agenda items 4, 5 and 6 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We might return to those themes later in the session.

I call Sharon Dowey, who joins us on videolink this morning.

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Richard Leonard

We may have a session in the future when we drill a bit more deeply into some of the individual ICT projects.

I will now hand over to Colin Beattie, who has a number of questions.