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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

That will be good. We are a Public Audit Committee. On the one hand, we do not believe in coincidence and, on the other, we like to see statistical evidence to support arguments that are put before us.

I have another small question. When you replied to Willie Coffey, you mentioned the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. You are, of course, an independent commissioner.

Public Audit Committee

Auditor General for Scotland (Work Programme)

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

We turn to questions from our deputy convener.

Public Audit Committee

Auditor General for Scotland (Work Programme)

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

The final area that we want to cover before we finish up is the sponsorship of public bodies, which has been the subject of some discussion and evidence gathering at the committee over the past couple of years, in relation to concerns that we had about the Crofting Commission and more broadly.

The Scottish Government gave an undertaking last spring, I think, to have a review and we took evidence in the autumn of last year but it seems as though it is a continuing concern. At one point, you said that there might be an opportunity for a fundamental audit of the sponsorship arrangements. In the context of the work programme discussion, can you tell us where you are on that? It seems to be a recurring theme and we would like progress to be made on it.

11:15  

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 11th meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2023.

The first item on our agenda is to agree to take items 4, 5, 6 and 7 in private. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is an evidence session with the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland, Ian Bruce, on Audit Scotland’s section 22 report on the latest audit of the commissioner’s performance, which was published several weeks ago.

Towards the end of the committee’s previous evidence session on the report, we had some discussion about whether Ian Bruce is the accountable officer as well as the commissioner. For the record, I confirm that you are—that is correct, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Do you not qualify that by saying what the average wait is? I know that you do not want to falsely raise people’s expectations, but it can also be a deterrent. If I have a complaint about the way that I was treated last week and am told that that behaviour will not be addressed for eight months, there is the issue that other incidents might happen between now and then to people who might be in the same position as me. In my view, that seems to be an odd decision to take.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I am going to move things on now. An issue that we have come back to several times this morning, but also in previous evidence sessions that we have had with the Auditor General, is staffing capacity and performance. I invite Roz McCall to ask some questions on that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Roz McCall touched on that in her questions. The report that we have before us from Audit Scotland, which is a recent report, albeit that it is on the previous financial year, recounts that there was a proposal to restructure the staffing in the office that would generate savings of almost half a million pounds—£450,000—but that has been reversed. That sends a signal to us that there was a proposal to scale down quite significantly the operations of the commissioner’s office, maybe in line with the 84 per cent rejection rate. If you could come back on that point, that would be helpful.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

You described the eight-month wait as the outlier, but did you put that on your website to inform people who might have a complaint of the length of time that they might have to wait?

Public Audit Committee

Auditor General for Scotland (Work Programme)

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

That is very helpful.

I want to take us on to a matter that you have previously spoken about and informed us of. It is one that not only the current committee but our predecessor committee in the previous parliamentary session identified as being extremely important. We get section 22 reports, for example, which contain recommendations, but because, the following year, a follow-up section 22 report is not produced on that organisation or public body, we lose track of what happens to the recommendations.

Therefore, we would value the ability to have oversight and continuity of interest. I recall that you said that you also saw that as being important, and that you were in discussions with the Scottish Government about establishing some kind of framework that would allow that to become a routine outcome of the audit work that you do and the reports that you present. From memory, December 2022 was mentioned as the date by which you hoped to be finalising that process. Could you bring us up to date with where things are with that framework? Are you taking any other steps to address that issue of being able to follow through on and keep track of recommendations that you and your auditors have made, which is, by common consent, a deficiency?