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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I take it from that that your answer is not yes. Do you accept the recommendation from the Auditor General?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I am sure that the Auditor General was not suggesting “a dry annual report”, but was, rather, suggesting something that would be informative and would help people to understand the progress that has been made. We have highlighted some of the areas where we have concerns, but as you said at the start, some extremely critical work is going on—thanks, not least, to the workforce. The committee adds our thanks to yours to the staff who do such incredible work and provide services day in, day out and night in, night out.

On that note, I close this morning’s session. Caroline Lamb, Richard McCallum and John Burns, thank you for your input, which has been very useful. You said that you might get back to us with a bit more detail on some areas; that would be most welcome.

10:34 Meeting continued in private until 10:59.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay. A lot of this morning’s discussion will be about the financial pressures on the national health service. Caroline Lamb, you are the accountable officer responsible for £19 billion of public money, so it is quite important that we get an understanding that you are on top of the pressures that you face. I will turn to Craig Hoy, who has some questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I suppose that it also depends, does it not, on the model that is chosen? At the moment, it is envisaged that the national care service will, largely, be a commissioning model, whereas, at one time, we were told that it would be the modern-day equivalent of the foundation of the national health service, which is a very different model from the one that has been put forward in the bill.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I will take you back to what you said in reply to Bill Kidd’s opening questions. Did you suggest that the figure in the Audit Scotland report—that only three of the 14 territorial NHS boards were expected to break even—was just a snapshot at the wrong time?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Thanks. I turn to Bill Kidd for the final series of questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay. If, for example, the NHS Golden Jubilee site is open by the end of the year, how does that compare with when you expected it to be open when the construction work was originally procured?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay, but the Audit Scotland report came out in February, yet, just two days ago, in this Parliament, the chief executive of NHS Dumfries and Galloway told the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee:

“I have worked in the NHS since the 1980s. I am a finance director by background and I have never seen a position as challenging as this.”

He then went on to speak about

“an existential challenge to our current service models”.

He also said:

“technically, I cannot afford one in 10 of my workforce”.—[Official Report, Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, 2 May 2023; c 13-14.]

There is severe pressure on territorial health boards, is there not? It looks a bit more like the picture painted by Audit Scotland than the one that you have painted for us this morning.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay, thank you.

Another area identified in the Audit Scotland report is the delays to the roll-out of the national treatment centres, which we all understand are critical in regard to tackling waiting times and the backlog. They are critical not just in addressing the immediate pressures but in providing a longer-term route for getting people the treatment that they need. There has been a delay. Can you tell us where we are with the opening of the national treatment centres, some of which were meant to open last year and are still not open?