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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
However, are some of these things not pretty basic requirements? I am looking to you, Auditor General. It seems to me that the report points out that details of planned actions are
“vague and do not include intended completion dates”.
Neither is there any estimate of “expected impact.” That is pretty rudimentary, is it not, if you are carrying out a programme of work that is designed to bring about transformative change?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
For completeness, you said in the report:
“The GCE Programme Board does not have risk management arrangements in place, despite a recommendation from a 2019 internal review that this should be a priority.”
That was identified as a priority in 2019, but here we are in 2023 and those are still not in place.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much. I am sure that we will return through the next hour or so to some of those questions on where there are gaps, where there is a lack of clarity and on how things are working.
I want to begin with a question on governance arrangements. We are really interested to understand, from the work that you have done, your sense of the extent to which cross-Government collaboration is taking place in order to progress both climate change actions and the management of competing priorities. We take evidence on issues such as Government expenditure on major capital projects and are now beginning to interrogate more the extent to which they contribute positively, or maybe even negatively, towards those net zero goals. Could you address that question of cross-governmental collaboration?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
My experience of such things is that it would be useful to understand whether it is an engine room or a talking shop.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you. It is helpful to get that on the record.
I will now invite the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
Okay. Obviously, part of our role as a parliamentary committee with an interest in this area is to hold Government to account and it might be that we will consider taking up what you have just told us.
Another thing struck me in relation to the point about transparency. Does the GCE programme board publish minutes, for example? Does it have minutes? If so, are they in the public domain?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
Sometimes we as a committee consider elements of public life that are almost unique—for example, the national health service—but every Government in the northern and southern hemispheres has to face up to the global climate emergency.
To reiterate what I said at the start, your report came out last month, and is based on audit work that was carried out up until March of this year. In the report you say:
“The Scottish Government does not routinely carry out carbon assessments or capture the impact of spending decisions on its carbon footprint in the long term.”
Is that because it does not have a template to use? Presumably, other Governments are grappling with those kinds of measures and impact assessments and so on. Is there any good reason, learning from international experience, why those things could not be brought in and become an integral part of decision making in the Scottish Government?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
I guess that my horizons are a bit wider than the UK. For example, what are the Scandinavian Governments doing? What is happening in Germany or some of the African states? There is no point in every single Government in every single country carrying out its own from-the-start approach. Presumably, shared understandings of policy implications and how you can better measure the impact of the decisions that you are taking on your climate change targets should exist.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
There is a sense—I picked this up from your report and the Scottish Government’s just transition commission’s recommendations—that there is a degree of impatience that the climate emergency was declared back in 2019, but, in 2023, some fairly basic building blocks are still not in place in a way that we would perhaps expect.
One of the things that struck me—this picks up on Sally Thompson’s comments—is exhibit 3 in the report, which refers to what you describe as “by exception” reporting being in place between key Government groups. In other words, there is no routine, systematic or regular collaboration in that sense. I am not saying that that happens by chance, but it does not routinely happen. Do you have any comments on that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 18 May 2023
Richard Leonard
On a similar theme, you draw attention in the report to the deputy director network, which you describe as a
“key climate change governance body”.
It seems to operate informally, so I again ask the basic question: does that network produce minutes?