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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

So we should knock on Gregor Irwin’s door.

Finally on this subject, one of the principal recommendations was, I presume, about productivity. You mentioned comparisons with other northern European yards. However, part of the minute of the FMPG board meeting on 2 February 2023, which Andrew Miller chaired and which Colin Cook attended, I think, says that “CM”, which I understand to mean Chris Mackay, who is a non-executive director, noted that the FMI report—it says “reports”, so we will come to whether there was one report or two—said that the yard needs to be three times as productive as it is. That means that some of the information in the FMI report is out in the public domain.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay. We need to move on. We understand that there are commercially sensitive pieces of information that would almost certainly be contained in that report, but I am not sure that we accept your argument, Mr Irwin, that the methodology of the consultants needs to be protected.

09:45  

I will turn to another area that we spoke to the Auditor General about, when he was before the committee—the overall framework agreement for pay. The yard was nationalised towards the end of 2019, so why did it take until March 2022 before a framework agreement on pay and remuneration was agreed?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Well, I think that the people who are watching this will have a view about what has been delivered, what the performance has been like, what the outturns have been and whether those match up to people getting a 17.5 per cent “incentive payment”, or bonus—as you wish, because that will be something that people make up their own minds about.

I have a final question for Mr Irwin about something that was drawn out in the evidence session with the Auditor General but which is also contained in the report.

Earlier, you mentioned the sponsorship team arrangement. The Auditor General’s view is that there is a good deal of “ambiguity” about the relationship between the sponsorship team and FMPG and about how oversight worked. Actually, one of the catalysts for his drawing that conclusion was the fact that there was no advance clearance of the remuneration system.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We will move on now, and I invite Willie Coffey to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

In the interests of transparency, I should draw people’s attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests and my trade union affiliations.

I have one final question, as we have all four of you here. I go back to the point about the sponsor team arrangements. My question is first and foremost to David Tydeman. How well supported do you think you are by the sponsorship team in the Scottish Government?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I want to pick up on that issue. We are very interested in written authority, because we have not seen any since 2007. Therefore, you will understand why we are interrogating the procedure, who was involved, and what steps were taken. You have confirmed that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance were involved. Do you speak to the permanent secretary about those decisions?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Forgive me. Those are steps that were taken by a minister that we have not seen for a very long time. However, rather than simply saying that you do not think that something represents value for money, full stop, in the letter you go on to elaborate about there being

“entirely legitimate and important factors that Ministers can take into account”.

Do you not think that that was straying into territory that is about Government policy? Is it not your job simply to say whether something meets the test of propriety, regularity and value for money?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay.

I will come back to Gregor Irwin. In your letter to me of 19 May, you say that the reason why you were not prepared to disclose any of the FMI report was that you needed to protect FMI’s methodologies and intellectual property. However, I presume that any consultant that is hired by the Government has a methodology and relies to a certain extent on intellectual property rights. Why on earth would any report by any consultant ever be published, if such are the criteria to be applied?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

If the payment is for performance—

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Hang on a minute, Mr Miller. This is not just an enterprise in which public money has been invested. It is owned by the Scottish Government. There is one shareholder, which is the Scottish Government—