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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

I am reflecting on the report that you referred to, Auditor General, which you brought out earlier this year, where you reminded us that a climate emergency was declared in 2019. Four years down the line, we are in an emergency situation. What urgent action has been taken? Is anything being included in construction specifications around new public infrastructure that recognises the seriousness of the emergency that we are facing?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

We will be keen to hear the results of that investigatory work that you are doing.

I will ask one other question before I bring Sharon Dowey in. Again, it is about something that we have spoken about in other contexts at the committee over the last couple of years, and certainly over the last year or so, and that is inflation, especially in the construction industry. In paragraph 43 of the report, you refer to a concern that councils have expressed that construction inflation is estimated to be around 30 per cent. I suppose the fairly obvious question is: what is being done in terms of the allocation of funds to address that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

For reasons of transparency, if it was possible to disentangle any of that in order to understand what the different drivers of inflationary costs were and what was happening to the overall capital settlement, that would be useful. Presumably, it would be useful for local authorities in order to help them to prosecute their arguments for, perhaps, additional funding.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

That is really helpful. Other committee members have questions about financing arrangements and staffing levels, so we will come to those. I now turn now to Craig Hoy.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We can see that there are staged approaches to the roll-out—by age, for example. It will be interesting to see where that gets to.

We have another question that we want to ask you by way of introduction. You indicate in the report that, roughly speaking, expenditure in the year that you looked at was £1 billion of public money. What is the projected funding figure for future years?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Reflecting on some of your earlier reports, there were concerns about the extent to which the expansion would be fulfilled, because of delays in the provision of new buildings and refurbishment of buildings, and concerns about whether the increased staffing that would be required to deliver the expansion would be met. Therefore, when I read this report, I was quite pleasantly surprised to find that that appears to have happened. We talk about the £1 billion of funding, but is that revenue funding? Does it include the capital investment that has been required to increase capacity in the public sector, for example? Can you break down those different components for us?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Who produced the report on the pilots? Was it produced by the local authorities or by somebody on behalf of the Scottish Government?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

Willie Coffey is also deputy convener of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee, so he has a particular interest in seeing how that spread works.

Can I return very briefly to infrastructure, capital spend and so on? In the report, you talk about completion rates. I think that you said that the completion rate had risen from 87 per cent to 95 per cent over the course of the year that you were looking at. What is the current completion rate?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

I am sure that we will return to that theme as early as next week.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 15 June 2023

Richard Leonard

I second that, but maybe from a slightly different perspective. If there is a concentration or consolidation of ownership, it would be useful to monitor that, because that, in turn, will affect the way that the sector functions and its relationship with the public sector. We would certainly welcome a bit more evidence on that.

I thank Sophie Flemig from the Accounts Commission and, from Audit Scotland, Rebecca Smallwood, Tricia Meldrum and the Auditor General for their evidence, which has been very enlightening. Thank you very much indeed for the work that you have done on the subject. It is, by everybody’s understanding, an extremely important piece of policy work, and the auditing of it is especially important. We would certainly like to ask you to give it active consideration in the future, because it is an important piece of new developmental work that has much broader implications for young people, the wider economy and so on.

I will now draw the public part of this morning’s session to a close.

10:42 Meeting continued in private until 11:05.