The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Was the May 2027 date one of the conclusions of the Teneo report?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Bill Kidd has an important question to put to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Sorry, Mr Simpson, but procedural matters may well be the subject of future litigation, and I am not having anything played out at the Public Audit Committee of the Scottish Parliament that may later form parts of arguments that take place at employment tribunals or in other litigation settings. Please do not put that question to the Auditor General. If you have other questions about the report, please ask them, but if not, please draw your questions to a close.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Okay, thank you very much.
As no other member of the committee has a question to put, I thank you, Auditor General, for your evidence this morning. David Hoose and Rebecca Seidel, I thank you both, too.
10:37 Meeting continued in private until 11:27.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
I said that Willie Coffey would ask the final questions, but Graham Simpson has indicated that he wants to come in with a brief one.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much. I will get us under way and really home in on the compliance issue. When we received the section 22 report last year, there was concern that governance arrangements were way off what they should have been in relation to publication of minutes, internal audit procedures and, even, the convening of meetings. Big alarm bells were ringing at that time.
In this report, you are saying to us, in essence, that stabilisation has occurred and compliance with codes of good governance is in place. It is mentioned in the report that compliance was in place “by 31 July 2022”, which is very precise. Did things happen in advance of or in the lead-up to that date, or was that when the change took place?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
That includes the rationale for the request for written authority. That is quite a narrow focus. Gregor Irwin falls back on the use of the word “narrow” quite a number of times in his evidence to the committee and in some of the written information that we have seen. That rationale is quite a narrow focus, is it not? Why would that preclude even some of the Teneo report or even some of the information that was the basis for that decision—as you said, the decision was very unusual; it was the first time that there had been a written authority since 2007—being provided?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Therefore, you looked at that yourself. Were you also satisfied that the director general had scrutinised and analysed that to the depth that was necessary to arrive at the conclusion that written authority was required?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
That is fine. You will be aware of, and you have alluded to, the fact that Gregor Irwin, the director general economy, appeared before the committee a couple of weeks ago. During that evidence session, we spoke to him about access for the committee to the Teneo report and the information that led to the decision to request a written authority. At the time, he told us:
“What we are doing—and what we will work through with the Auditor General and his team—is seeing what we can do to share additional information. That process is on-going and is not yet complete, but we absolutely need to get it right, because we are committed to transparency.”
Two weeks later, we got a letter back from Mr Irwin saying no to that request. What happened between 1 June and 14 June?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 22 June 2023
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 19th meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. We have apologies from Colin Beattie this morning; I welcome Bill Kidd who is substituting for him. I also welcome Graham Simpson, who is joining this morning’s meeting.
The first item on our agenda is for members of the committee to agree to take items 4, 5, 6,7 and 8 in private. Are we agreed?
Members indicated agreement.