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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Okay. I take you back to my original question. To what extent is that currently fully costed?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report on the criminal courts backlog. I am pleased to welcome three witnesses. From the Scottish Government, we have the director general for education and justice, Neil Rennick, and the interim director of justice, Catriona Dalrymple. We are also joined by Eric McQueen, who is the chief executive of the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service. We have a number of questions, but, before we get to them, I invite Mr Rennick and then Mr McQueen to make some opening remarks.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you. I will bring in the rest of the committee shortly, but I will begin by asking about something that Mr Rennick alluded to in his opening comments, which was that the backlog in our criminal courts has had a really significant effect on victims and witnesses who are waiting for justice to be served. What additional support has been given, either directly by the Scottish Government or the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service or through other relevant support and advocacy organisations, to allay some of the impacts that the delays have had on victims and witnesses?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Do you have anything to add, Mr McQueen?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
For us as the Public Audit Committee, getting that breakdown is quite important. You mentioned a figure of £48 million, and we need to understand how much of that is additional. What proportion of that £48 million is additional, or is it just transferring from one budget heading into another? You might well, in the light of circumstances, want to reprioritise how you spend your money as a department and through your agencies. Having some transparency around that would be helpful for us.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
I find it quite unusual to hear the preparation and implementation of a three-year delivery plan being described as an “irresponsible” act. I think that most of us would view that as the responsible thing to do, given that, as Mr Simpson pointed out, it was initially intended to be produced in August 2022 and was again promised for the summer of 2023.
I am sure that the committee’s view would be that we want to see a delivery plan because that gives some concrete sense of the direction of travel. I do not know about you, Mr Rennick, but I do not know what the rate of inflation will be in two or three years’ time, yet I still have to make plans that are based on reasonable assumptions or otherwise. I think that there is a degree of impatience in the committee that that delivery plan has yet to be produced.
I think that you mentioned that Catriona Dalrymple has been working on some of the transformational arrangements, so maybe these questions are for her.
The report refers to the importance of the transformation of the criminal courts being a fully costed project while the delivery plan is being developed. Will you tell us a little more about the extent to which you have worked out the costings, notwithstanding the high winds of inflation that are around us? How did you get on with the costing of those plans?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 22nd meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you. We will come to your relationships with the victims support organisations a bit later on. Notwithstanding what you have told us in the first 10 minutes, there are some quite direct criticisms of your failure to engage sufficiently with those organisations. However, we will come on to that later.
Mr Rennick, may I ask for some clarity on the answer that you gave? You said that there is £48 million for victims support organisations. Is that additional money that has been put into the system? Over what timeframe has it been put in? We often hear about figures such as £48 million, but is it over a year, two years or three years?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Can I go back to a fairly fundamental question? Do you accept the findings of the Auditor General’s report?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 14 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Yes, of course, Mr McQueen.