Official Report: search what was said in Parliament
The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”
Meeting date: 5 October 2023
Richard Leonard
There is a striking implementation gap here, isn’t there? I am thinking in particular about provision for eligible two-year-olds. That is targeted according to people’s benefit receipts and the care experience of either parent or child. They are an extremely important group that is very much a priority for the Scottish Government through the Promise and other work that has been carried out, but these two-year-olds are only two once, aren’t they? If this programme has been in place since August 2021 and we are now at October 2023 and you did not know who these children were, that means that an awful lot of children have missed out on an opportunity for early learning that was stated as a matter of public priority and imperative public policy. How do you answer that?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”
Meeting date: 5 October 2023
Richard Leonard
Exhibit 4 in the Audit Scotland report gives examples of data gaps—we will say a little bit more about those again, I am sure. One of the data gaps listed is the extent to which children with additional support needs are not accessing funded early learning and childcare and the extent of any unmet needs. Here is another targeted group—and an especially important group—where there is a significant gap in the data available.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”
Meeting date: 5 October 2023
Richard Leonard
Again, Mr Rennick, I think that our view is that this ought to be a priority group. If anybody is to miss out on the childcare and early learning offer, it should not be this group.
You have talked quite a lot about the surveys. We get the importance of surveys in helping inform policy, but what really ought to lead policy is the raw data, is it not? It is all about the evidence of where the demand is, whether it is being met, where the target groups are and whether they are accessing the promise that has been given to them and which they should be accessing. The committee’s view is likely to be that customer surveys and those kinds of sampling exercises are useful, but it is the hard data that we are interested in. Why are you not capturing that?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”
Meeting date: 5 October 2023
Richard Leonard
But it was a stated Scottish Government policy, wasn’t it? I do not know whether that is the point that Mr Simpson is going to make. I understand what you are saying about the availability of data sharing and so on, but if the Scottish Government announces a policy and Parliament legislates for it but we are unable to deliver, it becomes a rather hollow promise, doesn’t it? You do not need to answer that question. I will bring in Graham Simpson.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”
Meeting date: 5 October 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much, indeed. That has been a useful session for us. I thank the director general, Neil Rennick, for coming along and leading on this evidence and Eleanor Passmore for your input. Matthew Sweeney and Joanna Anderson from COSLA, thank you very much, indeed, for answering our questions and taking part in this morning’s discussion.
10:33 Meeting continued in private until 11:06.Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”
Meeting date: 5 October 2023
Richard Leonard
Graham Simpson wants to come in on a similar theme.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 28 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Perhaps Leigh Johnston would like to come in.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 28 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 28 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Before I bring in Graham Simpson, I will take you back to the emergency budget review, in order to fully understand what you are saying. Auditor General, you said that the exercise was about identifying underspends and rationing the public finances according to that. However, when Eva Thomas-Tudo spoke about that, she said—as I interpret it—that that exercise has knocked off track the targeted support for GPs by 2026, for example. Was that going to be underspent, and that is the reason why the £38 million cut was made, or has the £38 million cut resulted in your assessment that that will not be on track?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 28 September 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you, Auditor General, for the evidence that you have led this morning, along with Leigh Johnston, Eva Thomas-Tudor, and Christine Lester from the Accounts Commission. I thank you all very much for giving us your time and your thoughts and reflections, and for giving us some very useful evidence that we will now consider in deciding what next steps we want to take on this hugely important area.
May I say, Auditor General, that I think that this is one of the strongest reports that you have produced, certainly in my time as the convener of the Public Audit Committee. It is very clearly driven by the evidence and has reached some pretty stark conclusions that I think all of us, as members of the Scottish Parliament, will need to reflect on. Thank you very much indeed.
10:34 Meeting continued in private until 11:25.