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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 30 November 2025
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Displaying 3519 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

You accept, though, that there has been a delay.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I am sure that the Auditor General was not suggesting “a dry annual report”, but was, rather, suggesting something that would be informative and would help people to understand the progress that has been made. We have highlighted some of the areas where we have concerns, but as you said at the start, some extremely critical work is going on—thanks, not least, to the workforce. The committee adds our thanks to yours to the staff who do such incredible work and provide services day in, day out and night in, night out.

On that note, I close this morning’s session. Caroline Lamb, Richard McCallum and John Burns, thank you for your input, which has been very useful. You said that you might get back to us with a bit more detail on some areas; that would be most welcome.

10:34 Meeting continued in private until 10:59.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

You used—advisedly—the word “reviews”, plural. It is a little bit confusing, and perhaps in the realm of bewildering, that there could be more than one review with, presumably, broadly similar terms of reference. Aspects such as a business plan for the yard, what can be done to give it a sustainable future and what the market looks like are, presumably, part of the research that an organisation such as FMI would carry out. Why would there not be just one review to be signed off by both FMPG and the Scottish Government?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I will begin by going back to what has been a recurring theme in relation to the delivery of those two vessels, which is cost overruns. In particular, I want to ask about paragraph 13 of the report, in which you draw attention to the fact that, during October to mid-December 2022, Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow made expenditure commitments of between £10 million and £15 million more than the Scottish Government had allocated. I guess the obvious question is: how could that be? Was it appropriate, and where was the sponsorship team of the Scottish Government during that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, you spoke about ambiguity and the framework agreement not being as clear as it might have been. How should the sponsorship team’s relationship with an NDPB such as this be, when presumably not insubstantial amounts of public money—£10 to £15 million—need to be committed? Does it come as a letter of comfort at the end of the process or should there not be some kind of prior sign-off by the sponsorship team or the minister or whoever to allow the expenditure to be committed? We have heard that before in other circumstances around the contract.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 12th meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether the committee will take agenda items 3, 4, and 5 in private. Do we all agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

For the avoidance of doubt, the enterprise must comply with the Scottish public finance manual guidance, so there should be openness and transparency, there should be value for money and there should be an internal audit function, for example. My reading of the external auditor’s report is that FMPG did not have an internal audit function at the time of reporting. Is that still the case?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

Again, I note that the reported cost for the FMI report is £200,000, is it not? There is also some concern about that report being covered by a non-disclosure agreement.

My final question goes in a slightly different direction. In the report, you highlighted the question of the demographic of the workforce in the context of the broader point about skills, and whether we are planning sufficiently to invest in the skills that we will need in future. To what extent, in your opinion, is the Scottish Government addressing what you have identified as a skills shortage?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes—we will let you move on, and you can come back to that.

My other question concerns the FMI report; I guess that I am asking you if you want to add to what you said about that earlier. Is the FMI report the report that has been commissioned by the Government and the yard? Is there other work going on? What is the synergy between the Scottish Government sponsorship team and the yard in developing a plan for a viable, long-term future?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Richard Leonard

I am interested in shipbuilding skills.