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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 June 2025
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Displaying 3197 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Richard Leonard

If the workforce is not culpable—as I agree with you that it is not—who do you think is culpable?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. I turn to Graham Simpson. Maybe he has some hard questions to ask in the final few minutes that we have left.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 3 November 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everybody to the 25th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee.

Under agenda item 1, do members agree to take item 2 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

09:01 Meeting continued in private until 09:30.  

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

Colin, I am afraid that we are running out of time, so I will have to move things on. The clock is against us. Thanks for your questions. If there is time, I would bring you back in, but I think that that will be very unlikely.

Craig Hoy has the final area of questioning.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. We will come to questions on the local government and health board data collection and reporting mechanism. At this point, Sharon Dowey has a few questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

Welcome back. In this session, we will take evidence on the Auditor General’s briefing paper on tackling child poverty in Scotland, which came out on 22 September—so, by our standards, it is relatively hot off the press.

I am pleased that the Auditor General is joined by, from Audit Scotland, Tricia Meldrum, senior manager, and Corrinne Forsyth, senior auditor, performance audit and best value; and I am particularly pleased to welcome Andrew Burns, who is here as a member of the Accounts Commission, because the report was jointly produced by Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission. Andrew, we are delighted that you are able to join us.

I turn first to the Auditor General for an introductory statement, after which we will ask a number of questions.

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you—that is very helpful. I have other questions in my head. However, because of the time constraint that we are under, we could maybe set those out in writing for you to follow up on to get a bit more—as I think that Mr Johnston described it—granular detail on some of those areas. That would be helpful to the committee.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

I will bring Willie Coffey in shortly—I just have a final question first. This might be for Catriona Maclean to answer. To some extent, you described the difference between the public bodies unit and the public bodies hub, which is alluded to in the report and on which there is a related recommendation. Can you comment on where that lies?

I am also interested in understanding this: you described how you are 80 or 90 per cent of the way through training people in sponsor roles in the Scottish Government. To what extent are you involved in the training of the members of those boards, and the people in agencies outwith central Government who are oftentimes involved in making operational and strategic decisions for the non-departmental public bodies and agencies and so on that they are on the boards of? Will you tell us a bit about the extent to which you have a training programme or have any other interaction with those people?

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

We now go to questions from Colin Beattie, who joins us remotely.

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Relationships with Public Bodies (Progress Review)

Meeting date: 6 October 2022

Richard Leonard

It would be interesting to understand the process in relation to the establishment of Scottish Rail Holdings and whether that is classed as a small body. I do not know how many people it directly employs, for example.

There is a tension here, is there not? I picked up something else from reading the report. In paragraph 4.11, an interviewee encapsulated what they thought was necessary, which at first I was quite attracted to, but then I thought about it a bit more and I have another comment on it.

In that paragraph, the interviewee says that it would be useful to set out

“what you can expect from us”

and

“what we expect from you”.

I thought that that was a neat encapsulation of the issue, although when I reflected on that a bit more, I thought that it sounded a bit like a master-servant relationship—it did not sound like a partnership of equals.

One thing that we come across in section 22 reports is a blurring, a confusion and an unclear sense of where roles and responsibilities lie. Paragraph 4.4 warns that

“Establishing a separate body and then managing it too closely risks undermining the benefits of separate status.”

First, do you agree with that analysis? Secondly, how do you see that in relation not only to Scottish Rail Holdings but to other bodies that are being created to deliver public services under the auspices of the Scottish Government and maybe at the instigation of the Scottish Parliament?