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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 June 2025
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Displaying 3197 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

That leads us on nicely to a question from Sharon Dowey.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

Matthew Sweeney has just alluded to that, too. You said earlier that there is a limit to the extent to which some of these big questions can be tackled at local government level. First, do you want to comment on the part of the briefing that I read out? Secondly, will you give us some of your reflections from being involved in that commission?

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for their time and rich contributions in talking about poverty. The session has brought out some very strong messages for us, not just as the Public Audit Committee but as a Scottish Parliament, about the urgency of what must be tackled and the transformative changes that are needed.

10:42 Meeting continued in private until 10:53.  

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

On your first point, there is a lot of talk in this debate about employability, but the families of two out of three children who were living in poverty before the cost of living crisis had at least one parent in work, so that economic fundamental also needs to be addressed.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

Key message 4 of the Accounts Commission and Audit Scotland briefing states:

“The views of children and families living in poverty are not always meaningfully considered as policies and actions are developed, implemented and evaluated.”

That is pretty much what Bruce Adamson has said, is it not? I do not want to put Paul Johnston on the spot, but it would be useful to get a view from the Scottish Government on that. Do you accept that improvements are required?

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We will move on to a question from Bill Kidd.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

Does anyone else want to comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

One of the themes in the briefing is a return to the Christie commission’s recommendations and the importance of preventative strategies. As I mentioned, it is a joint report by Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission so, for the next series of questions, we will bring in the folk with local authority experience as well as those with central Government experience.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

The principal purpose of our meeting is a round table to take evidence on the Accounts Commission’s and Auditor General’s briefing “Tackling child poverty”, which came out in September.

I welcome our witnesses. We very much appreciate your being here and giving up your time. We are looking forward to hearing the evidence that you are going to give us about your understanding of where things are. We are a public audit committee: we will be asking questions about what it is like out there for children who are growing up in Scotland, but we also want to spend a bit of time looking at the data, funding, delivery and outcomes. If you want to come in at any point, just indicate that to me or to the clerks, and we will do our best to bring you in. Do not feel obliged to answer every question that is put, but, if you are particularly keen to come in, we will do our best to bring you in.

One of the outcomes that we are hoping for from today is getting some good-quality information that will feed into the work that the Auditor General has said that he wants to continue doing on child poverty. He has prioritised that. We therefore hope that this morning’s session will inform his work as well as that of this committee and, I am sure, that of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, which is carrying out an investigation into child poverty and the relationship between child poverty and parental employability.

I will start by asking members of the committee and members of the panel to introduce themselves, before we go to the first question.

Public Audit Committee

“Tackling child poverty”

Meeting date: 10 November 2022

Richard Leonard

We are coming towards the end of our session. On that last point, Mr Johnston, you said earlier that the data is in place to inform the second phase of the plan, but it is worth reflecting that the key messages in the briefing are quite critical of the Scottish Government. Key message 1 says:

“The Scottish Government has not yet demonstrated a clear shift to preventing child poverty.”

Key message 2 says:

“It is not possible to assess the success of the Scottish Government’s first four-year plan to reduce child poverty, launched in 2018.”

The briefing goes on to cite Bill Scott saying that there is not a link between spending decisions, outcomes and targets being met. That is one reason why we as the Public Audit Committee are keen to keep an eye on the issue and keep scrutinising it, and why the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission want to keep it under their watchful eye and produce further briefings.

Auditor General, do you want to say a word about that before I come to my final question?