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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
Okay. As Stuart Brown called out Andy Witty’s organisation, I think that we need to give him the right to reply before we move on.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
I am conscious of the time, and we are anxious, before we conclude, to cover topics such as the Scottish Funding Council’s new model of distribution and what impact that will have. We will also turn to the Withers review.
I invite the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, to guide us through the final section of our discussion.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
Thanks for that—it is duly noted.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
We will take evidence in the new year from the Scottish Funding Council, but I note that, in an evidence-taking session with him, the Auditor General told us that, in 2020-21, three colleges out of 24 were in deficit, and that that rose to nine in 2021-22. I am not saying that there will be a linear progression but, if we extrapolate that rate of deficit growth, that would mean that every college in Scotland would be operating in deficit in the next financial year.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
But, you are here, as a representative of the college principals group, so it is important that you are telling us that.
I will ask Stuart Brown about the reduction in the workforce. One of the points that the Auditor General makes in his report is that, although, on the whole, the public sector workforce has grown, the workforce in the further education sector has contracted. Do you want to comment on that or any of the other points that Derek Smeall introduced?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
Stuart Brown wants to come in on this question, too.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much indeed.
I draw this evidence session to a close. I reflect on the fact that the closing paragraphs of the Auditor General’s state bluntly:
“Addressing the challenges facing the college sector cannot be avoided or postponed.”
I think that the evidence we have taken today certainly shows that everyone around this table is clear that that is an absolute truism. As I said at the start, when we get to January, we will have the Scottish Government and the Scottish Funding Council before us. That paragraph of the report goes on to make clear that the responsibility lies at their door, so we will do our level best to try to get some answers from them.
I thank you for your evidence, which has been very lucid and forthright and is valuable to us as a Public Audit Committee. Good luck to those who are involved in negotiations this afternoon. You may be travelling in hope, rather than expectation, but hope is a valuable commodity. I thank Ellie Gomersall, Derek Smeall, John Mooney, Andy Witty and Stuart Brown for their time and for the insights that they have given us, and I now move the committee into private session.
10:54 Meeting continued in private until 11:23.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
John Mooney wants to come in, and then we will have to move on, as the clock is against us.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
I think that John Mooney and Ellie Gomersall wanted to come in. Andy Witty has already come in on that point. We will go to John first and then Ellie.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 November 2023
Richard Leonard
You are not negotiating.