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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3919 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

In other words, that might mean a shift from some areas of current expenditure in acknowledgment that mental health is a growing issue that should be a central part of the national health service’s work, perhaps in a way in which it has not historically been a part.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes. To go back to a point that Graham Simpson made earlier, we recognise that some of the data is required for management purposes, but the committee would strongly support the maximum amount of data being in the public domain so that people can understand what is going on and follow implementation of the policy and delivery of outcomes.

We have come to the end of our evidence session. I thank Alistair Cook, Gavin Gray and Caroline Lamb for being with us this morning. In particular, I thank you for coming to the committee room. Quite a few of our evidence sessions have been with people who have joined us remotely, which is not always easy. You might be surprised to learn that technology sometimes fails, although, on the whole, we have had really good evidence sessions.

Thank you very much for the time that you have given us this morning and for being so willing to answer the questions that we have put to you.

10:39 Meeting continued in private until 11:20.  

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning. Welcome to the 33rd and, I assume, last meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2023.

The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

Presumably, you concede that taking nearly £30 million out of the budget, on top of taking £38 million out of it last year, will have an impact on services.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. I think that you alluded to it, but, for the record, I ask you whether you accept all the key messages and recommendations in the report.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

We will get into more detail about the data gaps and some of the evidence that we have taken around that, but the question is not so much whether you are talking to various groups or not, but what the outcomes are.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

So, are you saying that when a Scottish Government and COSLA joint strategy is developed, it is all down to what happens at a local level; there is no Scottish Government oversight of that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

Before I bring in Willie Coffey, I want to ask you about a proposal that was put to us by the Mental Health Foundation. It said that, in order to tackle mental health inequalities, there ought to be an assessment of the impact on mental health of all Government decision making. Do you accept that that is worth exploring?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

The Auditor General has obviously chosen to produce the report on adult mental health services because it is a matter of public interest.

Caroline Lamb, I will take you back to your initial response when I put to you the evidence that we had taken from both the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Scotland and the Auditor General. At 9 o’clock, you said that you accepted all the key messages in the report. However, before the clock got to half past 9, you were distancing yourself from the very clear message that there is a view, which has been reinforced in all the round-table evidence sessions that we have had, that the system is fragmented and that there are issues around accountability in the system. Do you not accept any of that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 14 December 2023

Richard Leonard

Are you saying that you think that that is working well?