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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3919 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

I thank the permanent secretary, John-Paul Marks, for his time and his willingness to answer our questions. It is greatly appreciated. I also thank Gregor Irwin, Jackie McAllister and Alison Cumming for giving us the benefit of their insights into the way the Government is working and how the reform programme is progressing.

I will close the public part of this morning’s meeting and move the committee into private session. Thank you very much.

11:16 Meeting continued in private until 11:35.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

May I pick you up on your language? You describe it as “rightsizing”, but, in the case of Scottish Enterprise, is it not downsizing?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Yes. Right.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Forgive me, but my reading of what you are saying is that reform equals contraction and rightsizing equals downsizing.

Before I bring in Graham Simpson, I have just one question that I hope is straightforward and which will elicit a quick answer. Currently, there are no public sector pay guidelines. They were not part and parcel of the fabric of the budget presented to Parliament. Can we expect to see public sector pay guidelines being issued?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That would be helpful.

I will take us back to the substantive report that we are discussing, which is the Auditor General’s section 22 report. I want to get your position on the record, permanent secretary. Paragraphs 95 and 96 are the conclusion of the report. Paragraph 96 carries a series of five clear recommendations from the Auditor General about a change of approach and development of approach, and so on, with regard to accessibility and transparency; governance and assurance arrangements; the public sector estate; a road map of what the design and delivery of public services, which we have already spoken about this morning, looks like and how you will advance that; and a timetable for completion, as a matter of urgency, of the whole-of-Government accounts, which we will get to shortly.

Do you accept the conclusions and recommendations in that paragraph of the report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

And its head count.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. Thank you very much.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Well, pretty much every item is categorised. For example, there is one here called “Taxation: A Very Short Introduction” and another called “Marx: A Very Short Introduction”. Both are listed as

“Appropriate under current policy - recommended to review policy exclusions and out of scope expenditure moving forward.”

What does that mean?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed, permanent secretary, for that introduction, which covers many of the areas that we want to speak to you about. I want to take you back to one of the fundamental, key messages from the Auditor General’s report on the Scottish Government’s consolidated accounts. He said:

“The delivery of public services in their current form is not affordable”.

How do you react to that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Richard Leonard

I think that Graham Simpson wants to come in on a couple of those points, and I have a couple of questions, too.