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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3919 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, but—again—do you not see that as a risk regarding which you need to plan for the possibility of litigation being raised?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

I wonder whether you can clear something else up for me, which was in a statement that we received in evidence that we took when we had GEOAmey before us. When I asked him about exposure to human rights litigation, David Jones said:

“The human rights obligation sits with the state actor, not the private company.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 28 March 2024; c 37.]

Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Those were my words, not Mr Farrell’s, on this occasion. He might use them as well, but I used them this time.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

One of the issues that has come up in each of the evidence sessions that we have had is the threat of human rights litigation. You have just given us the latest figure for the prison population, which is, once again, an increase on the previous figure. When we heard from the Auditor General and Michael Oliphant from Audit Scotland on 1 February, they said that overcrowding was, in the words of the Auditor General, a “live risk” of litigation, and Michael Oliphant said that it was a “big risk”. How would you characterise it?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 14th meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is to ask whether the committee agrees to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed. I turn to the director general.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Can you both confirm that I can take from your opening remarks that you accept the findings that are set out in the Auditor General’s report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Right. Graham Simpson has some questions to put.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Could I pick up on that letter to the committee from Steve Farrell of Community? I would be interested in your response to one of the things that he says, which is, if I can paraphrase, that the prison service has been poaching GEOAmey staff and it is therefore “perverse” for the SPS to call GEOAmey to account for having too low staff numbers and so on. He says that the SPS monopolises the monitoring of the private estate. Do you have a response to that, Teresa?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Steve Farrell thinks that there should be an independent monitor of such commercial contracts. Do you have a response to that?