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The Scottish Parliament is now dissolved ahead of the election on Thursday 7 May 2026.

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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3919 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. That brings to an end this evidence session. Thank you, Auditor General, for your time and input. I also thank Carole Grant, Fiona Diggle and Richard Robinson for their contributions. It has been greatly appreciated and you have set a useful platform for us upon which we may stand and ask some questions of the Scottish Government. Again, thank you very much indeed for your evidence.

I move the meeting into private session.

10:48 Meeting continued in private until 11:14.  

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Forgive me, these are matters that we will probably raise with the Scottish Government, but to help us to understand what the answer might be, we have some questions that we are putting to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Our main item is agenda item 2, which is consideration of the section 23 report “Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”, which has been produced by the Auditor General for Scotland. I am very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning. We have Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, who is joined from Audit Scotland by Carole Grant, audit director; Fiona Diggle, audit manager; and Richard Robinson, senior manager.

As usual, Auditor General, we have some questions to put to you, but before we get to those, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

A couple of weeks ago, the committee took evidence on digital exclusion, which you produced a report on several months ago. I would have thought that, if a public body had been asked by the Scottish Government three times to give evidence of the action that it was taking to implement public service reform, it would have at least looked at digitalisation or a change in the way that services are delivered, whether we agree with that or not. I would have thought that that would be an obvious go-to place for lots of the public bodies that were asked for information about what they were doing to reform the services that they provide.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I will press straight on and invite the deputy convener to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks. That would be helpful.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Great. I will turn to what you have said about progress on public service reform. There is a certain clarity in what you have said about that in the section 23 report. You are fairly blunt after paragraph 68 in saying:

“The Scottish Government does not know what savings will result from reform, or what reform efforts will cost”.

You also say that

“The Scottish Government’s governance arrangements for reform were ineffective and have recently changed”

and that

“The Scottish Government is not providing effective leadership on reform”.

In paragraph 87, you say that

“the impact on outcomes is not currently considered or monitored as part of the reform process”,

so it is not considered at all and neither is it monitored.

Those are fairly fundamental criticisms of the Scottish Government’s approach to public service reform, are they not?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

You highlight a familiar theme for the Public Audit Committee and in your reports: what is, to all intents and purposes, an implementation gap. There is a stated Government ambition, but delivery on the ground does not match up with that. That is the summation of what you are saying in the report, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Yes. A view has been expressed in the past that equality impact assessments are part of the red tape that we need to get rid of. Is it your understanding that the Government’s position is that it thinks that it is important that there are equality and human rights impact assessments of changes?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks very much. That is very helpful. Those are all my questions, but Graham Simpson has a final one to put to you.