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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 3102 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

National Strategy for Economic Transformation

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. That draws to a close our evidence session on Audit Scotland’s briefing paper on the national economic strategy. I thank the Auditor General for his evidence and Cornilius Chikwama for his contribution. I also thank Catherine Young and Kirsty Ridd.

I now move the meeting into private session.

11:07 Meeting continued in private until 11:32.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of the section 22 report, “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”, and I am delighted to welcome to the meeting Wendy Sinclair-Gieben, His Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons for Scotland.

We have some questions that we would like to put to you, Wendy. However, before we get to them, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

We will have more questions about the estate later.

I want to pick up on something that feels almost counterintuitive to me and which we have, I think, previously taken evidence on. If a person is on remand, they are more likely to be locked up for longer. That is still the case, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

As you mentioned earlier, you spent time as the governor of Kilmarnock prison. From that perspective, do you have a view about how things could work better collaboratively between the Prison Service—or the private sector, as was then the case—and central Government departments?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Do you have a view about the model of outsourcing that function of the prison service?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

But, again, we took evidence from the Auditor General that, as the report says,

“62 per cent of prisoners due in court arrived on time”.

That means that 38 per cent did not.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

Finally, and before I bring in the deputy convener, who I think has another couple of questions, do you think that this is a failure of GEOAmey, which is going to be sitting where you are sitting in a few weeks’ time? Is it a failure on its part, or is it a systemic failure? Is it a model that simply cannot work, no matter whether it is run by GEOAmey, Serco or whoever?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

You touched on the Allan Marshall case a couple of times. I do not know whether you have any reflections on this, but one of the things that struck me was that some of the recommendations of the fatal accident inquiry into Allan Marshall’s death were not implemented. Therefore, the fact that recommendations arise from an FAI does not necessarily mean that those will be agreed to in all cases by the Scottish Prison Service—and that is what happened in that case, was it not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

I want to place on record our thanks for your forthright evidence this morning, chief inspector. That has been very helpful to the committee in our consideration of the Audit Scotland report.

You mentioned correspondence that you had about the GEOAmey contract and some information that might be more up to date. If you are able to share that with us, that would also be extremely helpful.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Richard Leonard

That is great. Thank you very much indeed for your time and your evidence.

I will suspend the meeting to allow for a change of witnesses.

10:00 Meeting suspended.  

10:03 On resuming—