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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3780 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

Obviously, the creation of a new court would be outwith my portfolio, so I do not want to speak for the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs or for people who are involved in the justice portfolio.

However, from my perspective, there are routes to justice that do not require a specific environmental court: we have a court system already. The biggest barrier to people taking environmental cases to court is not the lack of a specific court associated with environment, but the expense of doing so. It is surely better to look at the existing court system and at access to processes such as legal aid or at capping of the fees that are associated with environmental cases than to go through the expensive and time-consuming process of setting up an entirely new court.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

If I take your last question first, the strategic review will look at that. Our response is that we think that there is scope for ESS to take into account community concerns about things that might happen as a result of whatever public body is involved not complying.

There is a difference between that and an actionable case. ESS is not set up to take on individual cases, but it could look at public bodies’ non-compliance with environmental law. It already looks into local communities’ concerns that relate to compliance with environmental law by a single local authority or any other public body. I gave the example of air quality compliance issues that had been going on for some time—ESS could look into those.

The exclusion of individual cases from ESS’s remit was discussed during the passage of the 2021 act—I think that we were on the same committee at the time, Mr Ruskell—and we decided to exclude it. The intention behind that was to ensure that ESS did not become an appeals body. We have seen in other parts of the world that such bodies have become appeals bodies that are almost like mini-courts. That is not the function of ESS, which is more of a strategic operation.

ESS’s investigatory aspect is that it can look into a systemic issue, perhaps with a public body, and it has been good at that, but it is for ESS to decide in its strategic review, within the parameters of the 2021 act, whether it wants to do more than that. I do not think that ESS wants to do that, and I do not think that anyone here would want ESS to do that, because it would then be almost like an appeals court and that is not what ESS does. It is more strategic than that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

ESS would not necessarily be investigating such a case—it would be looking at systemic issues that might have led to that case. You said in your description of that hypothetical situation that a case or an incident might point to systemic issues in respect of a public body not complying with environmental law. ESS can, of course, look into that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

Again, that is all very hypothetical. We have processes and procedures in place that are tied up in environmental law, and there are certain procedures that public bodies have to comply with. To give an example off the top of my head, with regard to consents for developments there is a process that is informed by regulations, some of which sit at United Kingdom level and some of which sit with the Scottish Parliament. Obviously, those regulations would need to change to enable what you are talking about. The issue is being actively looked at as potential developments change—in fact, there is a consultation going on at the moment on consents for energy. There is a constant review. The process that I just mentioned involves a joint consultation between the Scottish Government and the UK Government, because a lot of the regulations exist in the UK space. Whether a process is adequate at any given moment can change.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

I will not go into the detail of specific court cases but, obviously, decisions that are made in courts could prompt Governments to consider their processes.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

Absolutely.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

It is important to mention that the human rights bill would not have included absolutely everything that would have got us to compliance with Aarhus. Access to justice has a financial aspect. Having access to a court involves not just the existence of that court or process but the costs that are associated with going through that process. That is why Siobhian Brown prioritised the caps to the expenses that are associated with that, which you have mentioned as a crucial step in access to justice.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

I am sorry, but may I finish my point, Ms Lennon?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

I will try to.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 10 December 2024

Gillian Martin

Could you?