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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 May 2025
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Displaying 3061 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I am concerned about what a register would achieve. Before my time as the minister, the Government looked at the question. Maybe Andrew Voas can step in and help me, because he was involved in that. When the Scottish Government looked at the issue, it was decided that such a register would be disproportionately expensive given what it would achieve in addressing animal welfare concerns. I will bring in Andrew Voas, who was involved in that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

Perhaps you should save that question for Christine Grahame. I do not want to tell you what to do, Ms Hamilton, but it might have implications. That is for you to decide. I have set out some of the reasons for our reticence about the registration provisions in part 2 of the bill. However, the committee might take a different view.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

While Andrew Voas was speaking, I was able to locate what I wanted to bring to the answer on fraudulent and unlicensed breeders.

A register of the type proposed in the bill would not prevent puppies from being sourced from unlicensed breeders but it could confuse the public or provide false assurance to them because there might be confusion with licensed breeders who have fulfilled all the conditions for their licences. If someone in a house in a certain street with one litter—just a domestic situation—was on a register, they could be confused with a licensed breeder in the public’s mind because of a confusion about what the two registers mean. That is a concern.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I think so, yes.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I have thought about that question. That is one of the most difficult things to put a number on, because it would depend on the local authority. Think about the resource implications for the Highlands and Islands compared with Clackmannanshire or another small geographical area with fewer people. What increase in personnel would be required if it was expanded to the unlicensed breeders that we are talking about? What boots on the ground would be required on your patch? What transport costs would there be? It is a difficult thing to quantify. You would probably get a different answer from every local authority that you asked. Some might think that they needed another full-time equivalent person in the animal welfare team, and some might able to absorb the resource implications. I do not have a definitive answer to that question, because every local authority would have a different answer.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

The question for the member who has introduced the bill is whether she is looking at 32 registers that feed into one central database. How would that work? How would they speak to one another? You could be travelling from one local authority area to another to buy a dog—most people do, because they go to where the dog that they want to purchase is. You would want all those databases to speak to one another.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

Because that is not in the bill, it is not something that I have necessarily an answer to—

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I will finish my response. If that had been put into the bill, we could have addressed it.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

That is a key question. As I was listening to it, I was thinking about two things. On the one hand—as with quite a lot of this bill—the responsible people will sign up, but the question is: how can we find the people who do not? I do not know—it is impossible.

The other unintended consequence is that if people think that there might be penalties associated with not registering, they might not seek veterinary assistance. What if a household gets caught out and finds itself with a litter? They might want to move the litter on to people whom they know, advertise or whatever, but they might also be worried about the expense of everything else involved. If they cannot afford that, they might worry that, when they take the puppies to the vet for a check-up, the vet might phone the council to say that they are not registered.

It is a complex issue. We have to take into account the fact that we are not talking about people who are breeding for an income; after all, having up to two litters is not a business. We are probably talking about families who are going through a once or twice-in-a-lifetime experience. They might want to let their dog have a litter and to sell the puppies to people in their community whom they might know. Should they then have to do this onerous task? Perhaps I should take away the word “onerous”, as Christine Grahame is not suggesting anything onerous, but what does it really achieve?

The other question that I keep coming back to is this: does being on a register give some kind of false legitimacy to the welfare issues around puppies? That is a worry, too.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I could not have put it better.