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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 June 2025
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Displaying 3138 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

Welcome, everyone, to the 30th meeting in 2022 of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. I have received no apologies from any members. Stephanie Callaghan will be joining us online.

Under agenda item 1, we continue our consideration of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. We will have two evidence sessions this morning. The first session will focus on a human rights approach and legislative considerations.

I welcome to the committee our three witnesses. Jennifer Paton is a policy executive with the Law Society of Scotland; Isla Davie, King’s Counsel, is from the Faculty of Advocates; and Frank Jarvis, is legal officer with the Scottish Human Rights Commission.

One of the principles that is set out in the bill—it is one of the first things in the bill—is that the services provided by the national care service

“are to be regarded as an investment in society that ... is essential to the realisation of human rights”.

Do you think that the provisions in this very high-level framework bill have the potential to address issues in the current system that have led to inconsistencies in relation to equity and the issues that we have heard about, particularly over the past couple of years, where there may not have been a consistent approach throughout the country to people’s human rights? Can this framework bill be a springboard to addressing people’s human rights when accessing care services?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

I think that Tess White has a question on that.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

When you say “centralisation of services”—you have used that phrase a couple of times—the impression that is given is that services will be run from a central position, when, in fact, the framework sets out that it is about ministerial accountability for standards and that services will still be local. Do you not agree with that? Do you still want clarity on it?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

My point is that there is a difference between delivery and accountability. There will still be local delivery, but there will be ministerial oversight of the standards.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

Is that because so much of the detail will happen in secondary legislation as a result of the co-design process with stakeholders?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

Paul O’Kane has a question on fair work, but he also wants to pick up on co-design, I believe. I will then go back to Emma Harper, who has some questions on fair work.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

Is the fact that human rights will be incorporated into other Government and Parliament procedures the reason for their not being referenced in the bill? The incorporation of such rights will be an overarching process—it will go across every piece of legislation that we have before us. Should they be referenced in the bill?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

If there are no other questions on that theme, I will move on to Anne’s law and questions from Carol Mochan.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

Do the other witnesses want to come in on any aspects of the charter? I am interested to know whether you feel that something like a charter would have made a difference, particularly with regard to people exercising their rights in the pandemic. People’s experiences during the pandemic probably brought the need for a national care service to the fore. Do you think that that has been a gap? What is the point in having the legislation if it does not address issues and gaps?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Gillian Martin

With Paul O’Kane’s permission, I will bring in Sandesh Gulhane, who wants to pick up on one point.