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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 December 2025
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Displaying 3584 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I do not have that information in front of me. I do not know whether any of my officials has it. We can certainly write back to you with it.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

We will do that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

Yes.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

We need to have a discussion about the wording around the bill and the code of practice, to address some of the concerns about advisory and directory. I get the wider point, and I have probably said something fairly similar to what you have just said, which is that, by having something in a bill such as this, it has heft behind it.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

You know how these things work, Mr Carson—you have been doing it long enough.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

There are a couple of things to say in response to that. In 2021, we made changes to that process, and I have to give Christine Grahame credit for prompting that. Initially, Ms Grahame was looking at doing work on the welfare of dogs. Changes were proposed with regard to the breeding of three litters and upwards a year needing to be licensed and registered, and that was a good move—that has really made a difference to the whole regime.

These are my issues. There will be families and individuals whose pet dog will have one litter or perhaps they have another dog that has a second litter, or whatever. That is not necessarily a breeding business. That is a family whose dog has had a litter, and I do not think that it can be classed in the same way as a business.

My main issue is that local authorities already have responsibility for licensed breeders that can breed three litters and above. To add a register for unlicensed breeders would add too much of a burden, and I am not convinced about what it would achieve for animal welfare.

There are also responsible people in this situation who will apply when they have a litter, whereas irresponsible people will not. How can local authorities enforce that? The personnel power that would be needed for that is unquantifiable. How would the people be identified and quantified? Again, we are talking about what is probably a domestic situation.

Karen Adam made a good point in an earlier meeting. Mistakes happen, not to put too fine a point on it, and, all of a sudden, you might find that your unneutered dog is having puppies in your kitchen at 4 in the morning. You might not have the wherewithal or the time for that and, all of a sudden, you have to be licensed as a dog breeder. That is onerous and probably unmanageable from local authorities’ point of view at a time when they are stretched and finding it difficult to provide the services that they already provide.

To be fair to Ms Grahame, the policy memorandum recognised the enforcement burden on local authorities, but there is also a cost to establishing and maintaining such a register and the personnel who would enforce it. I just do not see how it would be workable.

That is my reason for my support of the general principles of the bill, particularly around education of the buyer and so on, but I am not convinced that the registration of unlicensed breeders is needed, that it would have an effect and that it would be workable.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

The part of the bill that says an unlicensed operator could do what?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I accept that. On part 2, you are right—it is a suggestion. However, we already have the powers to put a register in place under previous legislation. I agree with you that the wording of part 2 does not mean that a register would have to happen; you just want the ability for it to happen. I hope that I have outlined some concerns that you might want to address when you give evidence and as you take the bill forward.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

That depends on the shape or form in which the bill goes through Parliament. There are two parts to it. If it goes through in its current form, there will be a registration system for unlicensed breeders and—

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Gillian Martin

I appreciate that Ms Hamilton wants to hammer home points that have already been made, but I am not entirely sure what I can usefully add to what I have already said. It is right to point out that the code of practice already exists, as do the powers to amend it under the 2006 act.

There is one thing to say about members’ bills. I know that a few people around this table have introduced members’ bills in the past; I certainly did when I was a back bencher. A member’s bill can raise awareness of an issue and can have a campaign associated with it. It can shine a light on an issue that a member feels lacks awareness in society. I applaud members who do that, and this is one such case.