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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 22 November 2025
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Displaying 3306 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

The member expresses some doubt in her remarks, but does she think that there are enough teachers willing to volunteer to get all the kids who should be going on courses to go?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

I am interested to hear what the member in charge of the bill has to say on that area, especially in relation to her amendments 13 and 14, which are in the next group. It is about making it as far as reasonably practicable. One of the reasons that it might not be practicable for a school to send kids on a residential trip is that no teachers, or not enough teachers, are volunteering. I raise that as a question, and I am interested to hear what the member has to say.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

I do not wish to labour the point, but would not having enough volunteer teachers in a school for a trip be one of those reasonable reasons?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

I did not realise that we were proceeding quite so quickly, convener.

Following my intervention on Pam Duncan-Glancy, I continue to struggle to see how the proposals would work in practice. As the member said, teachers are under a lot of pressure, and concerns have been raised by the unions that, if the proposals move on to a statutory footing and if there is a large increase in the number of young people going on residential trips, that will change the whole nature of them.

I totally support the idea of teachers volunteering, which works at the moment. With a bit of extra money, we could build on that.

However, if we bring the proposals into legislation, it would be very difficult to maintain the idea of voluntarism.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

It seems to me be a bit of a challenge to tie these two things together: if a school is required to send all its children away on a trip and, in an extreme case, no teachers are willing to volunteer for the trip, how will that work? Would the amendment not lead to destroying the purpose of the bill?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

I fully support the bill’s aims. I hope that I have made that clear in the past, and I certainly want to do so again. The idea of young people going on an outdoor residential course is absolutely tremendous; indeed, most of us will have benefited from doing so at some time.

My primary concerns about the bill were the costs. Perhaps unusually, I was the one who thought that the money should be targeted, and it was a Conservative member—Liz Smith—who felt that it should be a universal benefit. However, I think that we have reached a better place now.

I lodged my amendments in this group to get the ball rolling on the finance side of things before I had seen any of the others. In particular, I am happy with amendment 15, as it would continue the present arrangement whereby parents who can afford it pay for their children’s experiences. That is absolutely right; with money being tight, we cannot afford to have the Government paying for absolutely everyone when some people can afford it.

Therefore, I am more than happy to go along with amendment 15, which I think largely supersedes what I was trying to do. I was looking to use PEF money to top up what is already happening. I still wonder whether that could have happened without the bill, but the fact is that we are going ahead with the bill, and I know that the minister has reservations about specifically mentioning the PEF.

I am still a bit uncertain as to how much money the Government will end up paying for all of this, and I do wonder whether we will get a revised financial memorandum. Liz Smith and I are both on the Finance and Public Administration Committee. It seems that, if all the amendments—or at least some of them—go through, it will make quite a difference to the original costs relating to the bill. My understanding is that there can be, or should be, a revised financial memorandum after stage 2, and I will be interested to see whether that happens.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

If amendment 15 is agreed to, the cost to the public purse would reduce, because parents would pay part of the cost. Is it the minister’s understanding that we would need a revised financial memorandum?

10:30  

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

Can the member indicate how much detail the reports required by these amendments would go into? For example, subsection (2)(d) of the new section that amendment 8 would introduce refers to the report including information on

“the support provided to pupils”.

Would it set out the details of exactly what had happened for every single pupil? Similarly, how much detail would be provided under subsection (2)(c) of the new section that amendment 9 would introduce? I ask because what was provided to every individual could be different.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 18 November 2025

John Mason

So, to an extent, the issue is still under review. My personal experience, which is reasonably limited, is that I completely trust some staff at home, and they probably work better there than in the office; frankly, however, some staff do not.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 18 November 2025

John Mason

Okay—that is fine.