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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 May 2025
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Displaying 2559 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

John Mason

Okay. That is helpful. Perhaps the issue can go into Liz Smith’s finance bill when it comes along.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

John Mason

That is very kind, convener.

Along with Ross Greer, I have the privilege of being on the Education, Children and Young People Committee, so we have had a lot more background on the bill. I will press you a little more on capital spending, which the convener asked about. The education committee got the impression that some outdoor centres are really struggling and people’s expectations of them are rising. Some of the buildings were built in 1939—as it happens, I have stayed in some of those.

The current model seems to be that schools pay for only the running costs and that the capital funding for outdoor centres has to come from other sources. The centres are going around to trusts to beg for money and are fundraising and doing different things. I get the impression that some of the centres seem to be a little more successful than others, but that is to be expected. The suggestion was made that if an outdoor centre hits a major financial challenge, it may well close. The current funding model is working to an extent, but not hugely, and the councils have largely closed their centres. Surely, going forward, the model cannot continue, and some new money must come in on the capital side?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

John Mason

You said that you want to be inclusive, and we all agree with that. On your previous point, we all probably agree with the concept. The question is whether we support the bill, largely because of the cost.

Centres in Scotland can cope with those with additional support needs to a certain extent, but there is no one centre that can cope with some of the neediest children. Would the plan be that, in the short term, those children would go to England?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

John Mason

Would the alternative be to set up a fund of perhaps £10 million that was specifically for schools, children or outdoor centres to apply for to cover their costs?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

John Mason

I am sure that we all agree with that.

How flexible would the funding be? Would it be available for things other than going to outdoor centres? For example, some children in the Highlands and Islands are very used to being outside because that is their normal life, so they would like to come to Glasgow and visit museums and so on. It has also been suggested elsewhere that the money could subsidise overseas trips. How flexible is the whole thing?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

John Mason

That is helpful.

We have touched on capital funding. Mr Miller, I think that I stayed in two of your centres when I was younger.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

John Mason

Do you want to give us a rough idea of the percentage by which you have had to put the cost up?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

John Mason

Ms Fallon, you mentioned £1 million. Can you tell us roughly where that came from?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

John Mason

Yes, that is helpful. I will pursue that a little bit further. You mentioned consistency. Providing consistency costs money. If we have parents who are well able to afford to send their children on residentials, it seems rather a shame to subsidise them with public money when that money could perhaps be targeted at the families who need it more.

Willie Rennie will ask questions about money later on, so I do not want to tread too much on his toes. It was suggested that the cost of a week-long residential per pupil is between £300 and £400 or thereabouts. However, some of the submissions noted that the cost was £400 in 2022-23, so I assume that the average now would be up to about £460 with inflation. On top of that will be the cost of travel, clothing, equipment and so on. Even if the £460 was covered, do you feel that some families would not be able to send their children because of the need to spend money on clothing and that kind of thing?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

John Mason

I come to Mr Sweeney on the same theme. If families and schools are fundraising—that is quite good for the schools and young people enjoy it—and that money is already available, we should not replace it with public money, surely.