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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 December 2025
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Displaying 3334 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

We could probably go further on that, but I will leave it for now.

Let us go back to the costs of an inquiry. It has been suggested that inquiries should be inquisitorial rather than adversarial, and I wonder whether we have got the balance right. From some of the evidence that we have had, it seems that there are lawyers absolutely everywhere. There are lawyers for the victims, lawyers for the Government, lawyers for the health board and lawyers for the police—lawyers, lawyers, lawyers. I know that there has been some kind of mitigation—for example, at least two or three groups can have the same lawyers, which saves a little bit of money. However, I wonder whether the whole thing has become just too legally driven. You have been asked at length about having judges as chairs, and, in a sense, having a judge as a chair will encourage that situation, because that is what they are used to.

11:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

We have covered a bit of ground already, so I shall perhaps build on some of that.

Let us turn to the idea of having a fixed cost and a fixed timescale at the beginning of an inquiry, which is what seems to happen in other countries. I understand, Deputy First Minister, that you and I have a similar accountancy background. Audits are carried out by independent organisations—usually accountancy firms—or by Audit Scotland, and they have quite a tight timescale. Most people would say that audits are independent, whoever is carrying them out. Why is there such a fundamental difference in that we can audit complicated organisations such as banks within a few weeks, whereas the legal profession takes so long to carry out these inquiries?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

Right—it is back to me. I accept that auditing a bank and investigating a death are different issues, but I wonder whether we could learn even a little bit from the former. Almost every other career, job or profession—whatever we want to call it—is time limited. Cleaners would like to spend longer cleaning things, but they have to do it within a certain time. Auditors use the concept of materiality. Yes, they might find that somebody has stolen £100 from the Royal Bank of Scotland, but, in the scheme of things, that is not material and they will put it aside when they come to their conclusion as to whether the financial statements give a true and fair view. We seem to be going to the other extreme with some of the public inquiries, which perhaps go into too much detail and lose sight of the bigger picture and what is material. Do you think that some lessons can be learned from other professions?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

I suggested this to one of the judges and to other witnesses who appeared before the committee. Could we go for a model in which you say to the chair, “You’ve got two years and £10 million—do the very best you can within that”?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

I totally agree that that is the aim, and that is where we should be. I am just a bit concerned that we have strayed away from that, at least in some inquiries, and the process has become much more—and the public see it much more—like a court of law, with one side arguing their case and one side arguing the other case.

Let us turn to the issue of recommendations. You have explained a little bit how the recommendations from an inquiry are put into place. Do you think that we need more of a structure for that? Should there be a Parliament committee to look at that? Alternatively, subject committees could look at different inquiries. Does there need to be more of a process in that regard?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

I move on to something completely different. The 2005 act has been mentioned a few times. Do we have complete freedom to change that or introduce a new law, or are we in any way bound by the 2005 act?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

Would that be independent legislation to change the 2005 act, even though it is reserved?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 25 November 2025

John Mason

Okay—I will leave it at that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

The member expresses some doubt in her remarks, but does she think that there are enough teachers willing to volunteer to get all the kids who should be going on courses to go?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 19 November 2025

John Mason

I am interested to hear what the member in charge of the bill has to say on that area, especially in relation to her amendments 13 and 14, which are in the next group. It is about making it as far as reasonably practicable. One of the reasons that it might not be practicable for a school to send kids on a residential trip is that no teachers, or not enough teachers, are volunteering. I raise that as a question, and I am interested to hear what the member has to say.