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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 24 October 2025
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Displaying 3154 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

I met you when the Finance and Public Administration Committee visited last summer; it was a great visit, and we saw the big picture. We did not discuss the finances, but it was all very positive at that time. Yesterday, the finance director told us that, when he—or, I should say, they—prepared the management accounts month by month, you did not look at them before the finance committee, the audit committee or the court got to see them. Is that the case?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

That surprises me a little bit. I have worked as the finance manager or whatever for organisations, albeit smaller ones, and the chief executive was all over me. As soon as I had prepared the management accounts, he or she wanted to sit down with me before anyone else saw them and go through them line by line, asking “Why this?” and “Why that?” before they went out. Sometimes I could give an explanation; sometimes, if there was an error, I had to correct it. You did not take that kind of hands-on approach with the management accounts, did you?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

Yesterday, it was suggested that the finance department was underresourced. As the university grew, there was, I presume, more work. Were you aware of that? Were you ever asked for more resources for the finance department?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

We got the impression that there were some long-term sickness and other issues, so the department felt under pressure. If the finance director had wanted one or two more staff for the finance department, how would they have gone about that? Would they have come to you or the chief operating officer? How would that have worked?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

If the finance director had been working in the evening or at weekends because they were under pressure, would you have known about that? Would you have picked up on that?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

Would you say that you were somebody who deals with detail, or are you more about the big picture?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

So when they formed a view that the university was a going concern through to July 2025, that came from other people. They were forming that view.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

I accept that we all have the benefit of hindsight now, but given the urgency of the situation, other universities seem to have been a bit quicker at making people redundant, even though they have been criticised for doing so. You have made the point that all universities have been facing these challenges, and I accept that, too, but Dundee seems to have been very slow compared to others in making redundancies.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

Finally, covenants have been mentioned a lot, and Professor Gillies has put a big emphasis on them. I wonder how you thought of covenants. When a lot of businesses and organisations sign up to a loan agreement with a bank, they do not read all the small print, which is where the covenants are. It is like when most of us buy an insurance policy; we do not read the small print and, lo and behold, sometimes it comes back to bite us. Is that kind of the way that you and others approached the covenants?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 26 June 2025

John Mason

Yes, but you did not see them first, or discuss them first.