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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 September 2025
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Displaying 2904 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

I was going to say that it was for Professor Bell, but maybe David Phillips wants to come in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

That is great—thank you.

I will move on to a slightly different area. In the previous evidence session, there was quite a lot of discussion about the amount that we can put into and take out of reserves, and how much flexibility we have at year end. In Scotland, we are certainly feeling constrained by all those things. During Covid, we were not allowed to switch any capital spending into resource, even though that might have made sense. Are those issues relevant in Wales, too?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

That is helpful. I will leave it at that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

Thanks very much.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

That is helpful. We are pressed for time, so I will move on and perhaps the other two witnesses can come in on that subject later.

Recommendation 1 on page 5 of your report says that funding guarantees should not continue. I understand the logic behind that, but I wonder how we deal with it. To me, the problem is that, when Westminster announces expenditure, we do not know whether it is new money or existing money. It would be better if Westminster would just tell us how much of it is new money. For example, if the UK Government is spending £5 billion on London crossrail and we are going to get £500 million, if it would at least tell us that £250 million of that is definitely new money we could then bank on that, even though it is not technically a guarantee. Is there a way round that issue? Otherwise, it takes us ages to find out whether we are getting new money.

That is for Professor—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

That is helpful.

The figure of 5 per cent sounds a little arbitrary. I think that you said that there was a deal between the two Governments. We sometimes have the problem in Scotland that the two Governments do a deal, but the Parliament does not get a look in. In Wales, it would be the Senedd. Was that broadly what happened in this case? What was the reaction of the Senedd? Did it feel that Wales should have pushed for more than 5 per cent?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

I get the point about the unfairness.

I have one final point. On pages 45 and 46, your report is quite positive about the idea that we should have more flexibility in relation to transferring capital budgets to resource. We are allowed to put resource into capital, but we had not been doing so. Especially during the pandemic, the ability to transfer capital to resource would have been very useful. Am I right in saying that you feel that that would not damage the UK in any way and that it would give a bit more flexibility to the Scottish Parliament?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

I think that Liz Smith’s feed has frozen.

I do not know whether you have seen the submission from the witnesses on our next panel, which compares the arrangements in Wales with those in Scotland, but it seems that, on the whole, the Welsh are looking positively at their financial outputs, whereas we are looking negatively at ours. It seems that, under all the scenarios that our next witnesses look at, regardless of whether the comparable method or the IPC method is used, our budget will go down relative to that of Wales in the coming years.

Does there need to be a change in the current arrangements so that the Scottish budget does not continue to suffer? Specifically, should we look at some of the things that the Welsh have done, such as splitting different tax rates for different block grant adjustments? The Welsh also have a 5 per cent bonus on the Barnett formula because, as I understand it, the formula is designed to cut the needs-based Welsh and Scottish spending over time. Should we be following the Welsh model? I do not mind who answers that, but perhaps we can start with David Phillips.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

John Mason

I was interested to read in our papers about the extra 5 per cent that Wales gets if there are changes because of the Barnett formula. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the Barnett formula reduces the needs-based element when extra funding comes up, but Wales has managed to counter that with the mechanism of having an extra 5 per cent. Can you explain a little of the history of that? I think that suggestion was that the figure should be 15 per cent, so can you tell me how you ended up at 5 per cent?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 23 December 2021

John Mason

Previously, we had no crowds at all at sports events, including football. I am not arguing for that, but I wonder why, by that logic, you do not stop crowds altogether.

09:45