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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 May 2025
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Displaying 2559 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

I presume that the 32 councils will have slightly different terms and conditions for all the staff concerned, so there would be a lot of work to do if we were going to make them consistent.

Is the concern that those staff might not be able to stay in the local government pension scheme linked to the point about TUPE?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

Would it not be neutral for the pension schemes?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

It sounds quite complicated. I think that I am right in saying that, when the colleges came together and everyone got paid the same, it took quite a long time to bring all the staff levels together, because people were on all sorts of pay and conditions. Is that not an issue here, too? Might staff in the 32 councils not be paid in 32 different ways?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

I agree that you should not make a sweeping assumption. However, that makes it very difficult for the committee to examine the situation, given that all the assets could be transferred or none of the assets could be transferred, or it could be somewhere in between, and we have no idea of the cost of that. I suspect that other colleagues will want to ask about that.

On the issue of transferring staff, the suggestion was made that not all staff might be covered by the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, and I was a bit surprised by that. I would have thought that all the terms and conditions of staff who were employed by a council or an IJB would be protected if they were moved into the national care service.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

Is the issue related to the kind of legal bodies that the care boards will be?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

I was going to come on to assets and things like that, so let us explore that a wee bit further. Can Ms Wearing or anyone else give us an idea of the situation? If we take care homes, for example, or other care assets, is there a variety of models? Are they mainly owned or leased, or are private finance initiatives in there somewhere? How does the borrowing work? Does it relate to a particular care home? Can you give us a bit more background or detail?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

As it happens, one of the Glasgow care homes is in Dalmarnock, which is in my constituency.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

Is your understanding that the local council would decide whether it wanted to transfer a particular care home or other asset to the national care service, or would that be a decision for the national care service? How would that be decided?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

That is okay. My point is that, if we are looking at every individual care home for every council, the third sector and private sector, that will be a lot of work for somebody.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

John Mason

I will move on. VAT has been mentioned. I do not know whether any of our finance experts can give us the background on that. Earlier, I tried to press the officials on whether they could work round the VAT or whether we are dependent on HMRC and Westminster to make decisions about it. I think that we ended up paying money in relation to the police and fire services, which we did not really want to do. Do you have an angle on VAT? Are you concerned about it?