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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 1032 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Graeme Dey

I will pick up on Martin Crewe’s earlier comments. I attended an event in Parliament last night in relation to the proposed Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill. The member in charge of that bill has taken the approach of having a panel of highly experienced medical professionals put together a set of proposals that they believe would ensure that the legislation would work in practice.

I cannot help but draw a parallel between that approach and the approach that could be taken to this framework legislation, accepting the reservations that you have about it. I do not think that it is in anyone’s interest to have some sort of bolt-on to a national care system further down the line. If we are going to do this, there is a logic to having young people’s services included. If, during the period of research and consultation, there was very full and genuine engagement with the sector—which included listening to people who can highlight what has and has not worked and what the barriers are, and asking them, if they had a blank sheet of paper, how they would design a care system—would there, on that basis, be merit in the proposal?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Graeme Dey

Is a change of structure required to facilitate the culture change that is needed in some places and to ensure that that highest standard and those best examples become the norm?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Graeme Dey

To be more charitable, perhaps, than I was in the tone of my original question, I will come at the topic from a different direction. From a number of things that have been said today, there is sense of recognition on all your parts that we can do this better. If the proposals for including children’s services in a national care service involved an opportunity for you all to bring to bear your experience of the past 10 years or so—to look at what has and has not worked well, what cultural changes are required to be made and how the barriers that you identified could be overcome—so that you could bring your experience as front-line professionals to the table to develop a national system that reflected that experience, would that present an opportunity to make genuine and worthwhile improvement?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Graeme Dey

Looking at it from the other side, however, do you have confidence that what is in place now, as it is currently structured, and given the approach that is deployed in multiple locations, will address those issues?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Graeme Dey

However, that has not happened everywhere.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Graeme Dey

My point is that we are six years on and progress has been glacial.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Graeme Dey

Absolutely, and you articulate that very well.

Just to go back to my earlier exchange with Councillor Buchanan, I have to say that delivering local is not working in that regard, is it?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Graeme Dey

I want you to assess the merits and risks of the frameworky—as Fraser McKinlay termed it—nature of the proposal, set against the merits and risks of coming at the matter from a different direction. That would mean not including children’s services in the framework bill, doing the research and consultation, and then, at a future date, if we decided to bring children’s services into the equation, we would have to dovetail that with what I presume will be the national adult care service. What are the merits and risks of those two approaches, set against each other?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Graeme Dey

I have two further questions, one of which is probably for Cameron-Wong McDermott. What specific details what the service look like in reality would you require in order to be more comfortable about the approach that has been proposed? Going back to something that Iain Nisbet rightly alluded to, there will be considerable interaction with other pieces of primary legislation through the framework approach. Iain has already talked about scale. Will witnesses talk about some specifics of those interactions and, if we take this approach, how they might present challenges in getting everything right?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Graeme Dey

Those are all valid points, but the problem predates the pandemic.