Chamber and committees

That was the recommendation from the Feeley review. That is what the voices of lived experience want. That is what many stakeholders want. As we have explained this morning, we will consider whether to include other elements, including children’s services and criminal justice services. If, as part of that co-design, folk say that a certain element might not work, we have to be cognisant of that. We are not going to be dismissive of folk in the sector or of the voices of lived experience.

No matter what is out of or in the national care service, we must ensure that the linkages are there between the NCS and the services that remain outwith the NCS.

Today, the concentration will be on whether something should be out of the NCS. On Thursday last week, folks at the Social Justice and Social Security Committee were saying that housing and homelessness services should perhaps be in it. The—

Not at all.

You are being very naughty, Mr McLennan, because I said that I really do not want to be drawn on my views on who should be around the table. I think that, in the discussion during the co-design phase, many folk will say that the third sector should be there—they will advocate that—but that is a matter for the co-design process.

No, I do not think so, because we have done it in that way for so many other things. The Government has been clear that we will ensure that those who currently require care and support, their carers and the workforce are at the heart of shaping the new service.

When it comes to the voices of lived experience, many folks have gone through lots of other processes that have not worked for them. We need to make sure that we get it right this time. This is a great opportunity for listening, consultation and co-design. If nothing else, one of my big ambitions is to remove as many of those implementation gaps as possible. This is the right way of doing so.

Some people with lived experience—such as those from the social covenant steering group, and others—whom we have talked with and listened to since we began, would argue that the framework is the right way to go, because, if we started the co-design process without the framework, they could put in all that effort then find all of it wasted.

Again, some of the people who are very active in social care—for example, disabled people’s organisations—have been involved in things previously, thinking that that was going to lead to change, but it has not done so. The framework has to be there so that we can do the next part of the work, through co-design.

Others have argued that we could have done it the other way around. I do not think that that would have worked. If we had done it the other way around—without that framework—I do not think that many folk with lived experience would necessarily have had the confidence to participate to the degree that we want.

We want as many folk as possible to get involved in the lived experience experts panel and the stakeholder groups. We are at the early stages of that. Last week, for example, I attended an event looking at how we establish the charter of rights and responsibilities. That was an extremely positive meeting. I am not saying that no negative points were raised—some always are—but, if we go forward in the spirit in which that meeting was held, where there is a level of trust in what we are doing and people feel that they can contribute, we will do very well. That is what I want to see across the board.

The answer to the accountability aspect of that question is that the Scottish ministers are not accountable for service delivery. A lot of folk think that we are, but we are not accountable for service delivery.

I am sorry to interrupt, but I would like to expand on that. Where self-directed support works well, it can absolutely be a life changer for people and their families and carers. There are some immense stories about situations where self-directed support has made real differences to folks’ lives.

There are parts of the country where flexibility has been brought into play, because people have been listened to. In those instances, doing something a bit differently for someone, which will make a huge odds to them, is the right thing to do. However, in other parts of the country, there is a closing down of available options, and there are different payments. I spent the summer going around the country asking about SDS and various other things. There are stark differences, and we have to end that postcode lottery. I am very much in favour of giving folks as much independence and autonomy as we can.

People are always wary of change, and sometimes we tend to look at the possible negatives and challenges rather than the opportunities. There are a huge amount of opportunities here. As I said, I am happy to continue to engage with, and listen to, the housing and homelessness sector and other sectors. I want them to be involved in the co-design process so that we get the service absolutely right. Homelessness services may not be in the NCS, but we very much need those voices in order to get the connections right.

As I have already made clear, for many issues, we cannot wait for the national care service. That is why the Government has invested in the sector. There have been two pay rises in a year. As I highlighted earlier, we recognise that there is much that we could and should do now, and we are doing that. Joint work with COSLA to advance the fair work agenda is happening now. We recognise the pressures that are out there. That is why we have invested money to combat what we will face over the course of this winter.

Some folk have accused us of concentrating our efforts on the national care service. This is the third committee that I have been at in a fortnight, so it may seem that way to folk from outside. However, the cabinet secretary Humza Yousaf and I are dealing daily with what is happening here and now. You heard from Rachel Cackett earlier. She has been involved in a number of meetings in the past couple of weeks with folks from across the sector to ensure that we are making advances in reducing delayed discharges, for example, to stand us in the best possible stead as we move into winter. It will be a tough winter for social care and for the NHS, but we must do all that we can to make as many mitigations as possible, in order to do the best that we can in that period of time.