Chamber and committees

I am afraid that it does not address my concern. It is very difficult to follow up on animals that have been shot at night, to minimise any welfare issue. You cannot do that unless you have a dog with you.

I want to pick up on your comments that using night sights would allow more extensive deer culling to go on over a bigger period and that Forestry and Land Scotland spent £10 million a year on deer control. I have here some figures that I know are correct. Forestry and Land Scotland asks its rangers to kill more than two deer every day of the year that they work. That amounts to a huge number, which is probably not achievable. If some of that £10 million was spent on putting people on the ground, more deer culls would probably be achieved and the proposed measures would not be necessary.

Are you comfortable that harrying an animal from dawn to dusk, irrespective of its sex, is the right way to do it? To me, it sounds like a form of warfare, which is something that I used to do when I was in the army.

I thank the committee for allowing me to question the minister first. Minister, what concerns me more than anything else is that, under this legislation, we are going to allow a target to be painted on a male deer’s back from the very day that it is born to the very day that it dies. It can be shot literally as it appears out of its mother until the day it dies. Do you think that that is reasonable, fair and right for proper deer management?

Yes—thank you, convener. Before I go any further, I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I have a small farming partnership that has roe deer on its land, which are given protection because my neighbours kill an awful lot of them.

Minister, I am less concerned about the use of night sights. I am disappointed that you are unable to say that there will be a difference between using image-intensifying, infrared and TI sights, and which sights will be acceptable under the legislation. I think that that is an admission—it is an admission on training as well, and the extra requirements in that regard.

As the convener said, you can see the backdrop with lights at night but you cannot see the backdrop with thermal imaging. You can to a certain extent with II and IR, but not with TI, because it will just blend in with the backdrop. That concerns me if there is to be no extra training.

I would like to ask you about non-lead ammunition and the use of copper bullets. The point of lead and expanding bullets is to cause catastrophic shock to the animal, which causes it to die instantaneously. There is some tolerance, when you are using lead bullets, on the exact bullet placement; if you are slightly further back on where you should be shooting at, it will still pick up the lungs and the liver and cause the animal to die almost instantaneously.

That is not so with lighter bullets and copper. What investigations have you done regarding the use of copper bullets and bullet placement where you are going to shoot the animal, especially at night, using a TI, an II or an IR sight? How are you are going to achieve that with lighter bullets that require more accurate bullet placement?

Did NatureScot carry out its experiments on whether it is possible to achieve what is sought with night sights at night? If it did not do so at night, I would question those results. I am asking from a welfare point of view, because the welfare of animals is really important. I will come on to that in the second part of my questioning.

Minister, I am sorry, but with the greatest respect, you have just stated another untruth. In Scotland’s male close seasons, you shoot male deer during the rut process, but after the rut you give them a chance to recover. It is a pity—and really disappointing—that you have made that comment, because that is the second thing that proves a lack of knowledge about how to manage deer.

Stags can now be shot just as they are going into the rut; on 20 October, when they have come out of the rut and are coming back to the lowlands to recover so that they can last the winter, they go out of season. It is a similar situation with roe deer—they rut in August, and they are then allowed to recover after the rut before they go into the winter.

I am sorry, but I do not accept what you say, and I find it hugely disrespectful to the animals that you are talking about that you do not know when they are currently being shot in Scotland.

I am suitably chastised, convener, and on that note I will keep my questions and comments for when I speak to my motion to annul. I just feel passionately about the subject, and it is really important that we are factually correct when we deal with the welfare of animals.

I am glad that you clarified that that is in the good practice guidelines. Not a single member of the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission—not a single one of them—is a deer management practitioner. They include a World Federation for Animals officer, animal welfare officers, veterinarians, police and lecturers, but not a single one has practised deer management on a large scale. That concerns me because, at the end of the day, all of us as parliamentarians must ensure the welfare of the animals that we are killing in order to protect our natural land.

Just to confirm, SNIB is the Scottish National Investment Bank. It is a strange acronym that some people who are watching might not necessarily pick up, but I am sure that everyone here knows it.

Mr Lumsden, you said two questions ago that that was your final question. You might get in trouble with the rest of the committee. I might come back to you at the end, if I can.

You mentioned farming in your questions. Just for clarity, and so that there is no dubiety, I note that I have a share in a family farming partnership, which is declared and on the record, and that transmission lines go over the farm. There is nothing unusual about that, but I asked a question on transmission lines, so people should be aware of that. I hope that that clarifies things.

Perfect. So, we have the right person to ask questions on 801 and 802. When will 801 be in service? I do not mean when it will be handed over. When will it be in service with CalMac Ferries Ltd?