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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 November 2025
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Displaying 6348 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Our second item of business is an evidence session on the Ecocide (Scotland) Bill, which is a member’s bill that Monica Lennon MSP has introduced. It is our first evidence session on the bill at stage 1. Our role at stage 1 is to gather evidence and information to decide whether to recommend that the Parliament support the general principles of the bill.

We ran a call for written views on the bill over the summer. Today, we will hear from two panels representing a diversity of interests and expertise. First, I would like to welcome Jamie Whittle, who is the chair of the environmental law sub-committee at the Law Society of Scotland; Professor Valerie Fogleman, who is professor of law at the Cardiff University school of law and politics, and a consultant at Stevens & Bolton LLP; Sue Miller, who is the chief networks officer at Stop Ecocide International; and Dr Shivali Fifield, who is chief officer at the Environmental Rights Centre for Scotland. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thanks to all those people who provided written evidence to help us prepare for the session.

As is generally the case, I will start with easy questions. The first question is for each of you. Is a new offence of ecocide needed in Scotland? What are the opportunities for the bill to tackle the climate and nature crises, and what do you perceive as its limitations? That is a really open-ended question and you will not get half an hour each on it; I would like a couple of salient points from each of you, so that you do not steal one another’s thunder. Because Valerie Fogleman is in the room, I will let her start.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

I am sure that you will get lots of questions during the course of the meeting.

Jamie, you are at the top left of the screen as I look at it, so you are next.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Sue Miller is next in line, but something has happened to her screen. I will suspend the meeting while we sort out our information technology problems, because I cannot see her.

08:57 Meeting suspended.  

08:58 On resuming—  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Michael Matheson has a brief question.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Mark, you were waiting to come in on various issues, and we have finally come to you.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

First, Mark, I will just point out that we are less than a third of the way through the questions but three quarters of the way through the time. That always happens when we have interesting panels. Panelists, I ask you to be mindful that the longer you speak, the more you ensure that no one else can speak and the less chance we have to get through all the questions. You are the ones who will have to face your colleagues after this, and I will have to face committee members, so, please, keep your answers short and concise.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Thanks, Shivali, that would be helpful.

Right, I will try to move things along quite quickly. We have heard from various witnesses on whether the defence of necessity is required. My question requires a simple yes or no answer from each of you. Is the defence of necessity required? Jamie?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Shivali Fifield had her hand up.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Just before we move on, I think that the deputy convener wants to come in on that particular point.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Edward Mountain

Just before we go back to the questioning, I think that history has proven that, if somebody knows that they are doing something wrong, defending themselves by saying that they were only following orders has never been acceptable. You seem to be suggesting that it might be acceptable. My view is that that surely cannot be the case. If someone knows that they are doing wrong, they are doing wrong and they should not do it.