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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 January 2026
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Displaying 1369 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

You are saying that, in theory, it should all work well and that COSLA has statements and commitments that everybody should be abiding by. If it is not working well, are there some local authorities that are not adhering to those basic principles? Is that the problem?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

I am very interested in that point, because I would have thought that the guidance from the inspectorate would flag up to the other local authorities that are not doing so well that that is a key point. In your opinion, are some local authorities not taking on board that advice from the inspectorate?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

In an earlier answer, you made it clear that you thought that each local authority should be able to provide a lot of data on exactly where its information is being drawn from and how well it is achieving its policy. Is it COSLA’s understanding that that data will come from 32 different local authorities and that it will be collected and then properly analysed, or are you saying that it is the job of COSLA and some other institutions to collect that data? That is the key point.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

I am making a general point because the legislation covers different age groups. However, in relation to the offer to two-year-olds in particular, there is there is more of a problem. Our difficulty as a committee—it was obviously Audit Scotland’s problem in 2020, too—is that there is not sufficient good-quality data to assess exactly what is going on here and why there may be a downturn in particular age groups, or why in some cases parents are not taking up the offer to which they are entitled.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

Sorry, Mr Sweeney, it is about national data, but that national data can only be forthcoming if we are able to assess what each of the 32 local authorities is doing. They are the ones that are delivering the policy, alongside people in the independent sector. Therefore, for us to analyse what is a national policy, it is essential that that data is both clear and available. With respect, it would be very helpful if you could provide the committee with a little bit more information—if you cannot do it this morning, you could provide it at another time—to allow us to see with considerable clarity where the data on policy delivery is so that we can analyse it better. Thank you for your assistance so far.

Mr Robertson, can I ask one question about the Borders policy? You said in an earlier answer that Scottish Borders Council has been taking time with the policy to ensure that providers are able to survive and therefore deliver it. Could you say a little bit more about what action you have been taking to ensure that they survive?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

How far down the road are you in finding the necessary data? From our perspective—from the Parliament’s perspective—when we are scrutinising a very important piece of legislation that has cross-party support, it is absolutely essential that the data that underpins that scrutiny is well crafted and very clear. It strikes me that, in this case, there is no clarity over the way in which data is being either collected or assessed. Are you offering the committee the opinion that a lot more has to be done to get accurate data?

10:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

Did they flag up problems?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

Thank you. That is helpful. Finally, was there any discussion about the availability of staff to deliver in the centres?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

Good morning. I will quote from the Audit Scotland report “Early learning and childcare: Follow-up”, which was published in 2020. Key message 5 of the report says that a lot of work is being undertaken

“to capture important baseline information. However, challenges to the evaluation process remain.”

Could you explain what data local authorities are using, particularly when it comes to assessing uptake? What data are they using to assess the reasons why quite a number of children—particularly two-year-olds—are not taking up the offer of a place?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Financial Memorandum for the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill (Post-legislative Scrutiny)

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Liz Smith

Thank you for that answer. I think that it is important that we have good-quality data, which Audit Scotland was obviously requesting.

You suggested earlier that one reason for changes in uptake might be the pandemic, which is possibly true, and you have just suggested that it could be to do with stigma, although I am not sure that that would follow the logic in relation to three to five-year-olds; nonetheless, that is possible, too.

Is it not the case, however, that there could be quite a lot of data that suggests that one of the reasons for weaker uptake is the pressure on staffing, which is something else that Audit Scotland flagged up in 2020? There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that staffing is particularly difficult. You know of some reasons, but is it not important that we try to understand all the reasons for there being such pressure?