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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 September 2025
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Displaying 2224 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

That is a useful intervention. I do not like woolly wording, as Mr Ruskell knows. I definitely do not like loose wording in legislation, and there is a risk that the suggested wording could be seen as being that. However, in the spirit of compromise with which I have approached the process thus far, I have accepted that, at that stage, it will not be possible for the Government to set out in definitive terms the proposals and policies that will be in the next climate change plan, given that they need to be finalised once the carbon budgets are set.

I note that, during the stage 1 debate, Ms Martin made the point that it would not be advisable to publish, in her words, a “draft of a draft” of the climate change plan. Amendment 53 represents a balance between ensuring the availability of the information that the Parliament needs to conduct scrutiny and the Scottish Government’s need to finalise the policies to meet carbon budgets once they have been set.

If the committee is minded to support amendment 53, I invite it to take the view that Mark Ruskell’s amendments 6 and 7 are not required.

Finally, amendment 9 seeks to align carbon budgets with those of the rest of the UK for the reasons that I have set out. I will wait to hear from Ms Lennon. Mr Whittle is not with us, but I understand that Mr Lumsden is speaking for him today, so I will also wait to hear his contributions.

I move amendment 1.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

Thank you very much, convener. It has been a very full and interesting discussion so far.

Minister, the key question, which has been raised already, is basically what will happen if the regulation is annulled today. From what I have heard, given the timescale and where SPT is at, at the moment, it seems that there is time to introduce fairly minor primary legislation to change the system while SPT carries on with its consideration of franchising. Is that correct?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

No, that is okay. There does not have to be a panel.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

I will not, but I understand the amendment. Mr Lumsden will speak to it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

Absolutely.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

Amendment 45 would require the Scottish ministers to lay draft regulations to set carbon budgets within three months of receiving advice on Scottish carbon budget levels from the CCC. The amendment speaks to a recommendation in the committee’s stage 1 report, in which the committee highlighted the need

“to specify a maximum”

amount of time that could

“elapse between receipt of the advice”

from the relevant body

“and the laying of draft regulations to set”

the first carbon

“budgets.”

This is another amendment on which I have worked with the Government. I originally said that the maximum time should be two months, but we settled on three months. I do not think that that four-week difference is worth quibbling about. I am happy with the amendment and the compromise, and I ask the committee to support it.

In relation to Mark Ruskell’s amendments 5 and 59, I am fully supportive of any extra scrutiny that the use of the super-affirmative procedure would provide. That is important, so I urge the committee to support amendments 5 and 59.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

I want to clarify the last provision in the amendment, which says:

“Ministers must take steps to ensure that the document laid ... has been independently reviewed by a person with appropriate financial expertise.”

Is it Patrick Harvie’s intention that that should be just one individual, or does he mean that it should be a body? If it is a person—an individual—how would we assess what is meant by “appropriate financial expertise”?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

Amendment 21 will require that the climate change plan’s costs and benefits assessment is

“broken down by reference to the period covered by a Scottish carbon budget in which those costs and benefits are expected to arise”.

The Scottish Government’s best practice approach already achieves the sentiment of amendment 21, but it has not been codified and it is not a requirement for future Governments. We appreciate the technical challenges in meeting the duty in an efficient way as, for example, some policies may straddle two carbon budget periods, but we think that it is possible to disaggregate that between carbon budget periods.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

Given what we have heard already, whatever happens, it will be at least 2026 before anything happens, so there is time to do that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2024

Graham Simpson

It is quite all right; it is good to see the minister being passionate about the issue. It just seems to me that, if the motion to annul is passed and the SSI is annulled, the minister has to go away and rethink things. He has the opportunity not to have a panel, if he so chooses.