Chamber and committees

You said that the people on the future industry board are the same people who are on the growth deal board. Do we need a future industry board?

You will be pleased to know that there will be another report and another consultation—the Government’s just transition plan, which has been mentioned. Is there a point to having a just transition plan? I address that question to Malcolm Bennie, because Diarmaid Lawlor has had a good run. What should be in such a plan? As Adam Gillies has said, it should not be just words. It will need to set out actions, projects and timescales. You have already mentioned that there are lots of ideas out there. However, for me, that plan should be about what we need, how much it will cost and how we get there. Is that how you see it?

I start by apologising for the length of this speech, which will probably be my longest speech ever, but it was out of my hands, and I will, of course, take interventions.

There are two things in the background to the debate. First, there is the research that was commissioned by the minister, which is very good, although it would have been helpful to have seen it a little bit earlier. Secondly, tomorrow is international women’s day. In general, I am not a fan of naming days. In my view, every day should be women’s day—it certainly is in my house.

I will come on to the minister’s research later, but I say at the outset that everyone has the right to feel safe on public transport, be they female or male, whatever their background or race, or be they able bodied or disabled. I was chatting to representatives of the British Transport Police last week, and they certainly share the view that everyone in Scotland has the right to feel safe when travelling by rail. The BTP takes a zero-tolerance approach to violence, antisocial behaviour and sexual harassment. Working in close partnership with Network Rail and rail industry colleagues, BTP officers are out across Scotland’s rail network, day and night, to keep the travelling public and railway staff safe. As part of the BTP’s mission to keep everyone safe, it asks the travelling public to report crime through its text 61016 service and the Railway Guardian app.

Yesterday marked the 10th anniversary of the text service. It offers the travelling public and rail staff a means of contacting the British Transport Police directly and discreetly in order to report non-emergency crime. In that time, the BTP has had half a million reports using the service.

The free Railway Guardian app helps the travelling public and rail staff to report crime to the British Transport Police and offers information on what to do if anyone sees sexual harassment on trains or at stations. Users now have the option of uploading media evidence directly to the app, which is great. By using those vital tools, the travelling public’s small actions can make an enormous difference for the police.

I mention the work of the British Transport Police in my amendment. I have not had a great deal of hassle on public transport in my life. My most uncomfortable journey was probably when I sat next to a fellow journalist who got increasingly drunk on a rather long flight, when we had work to do at the other end.

I thank Joe FitzPatrick for his speech. I agree with the points that he has made. Men have to reflect on their own behaviour, because we—men—are the problem. It is men, not women, who are causing the issues for women.

The report shows that women’s experiences differ. Some of the strategies that are used are also used by men. Women should not have to sit close to other women or next to families on board public transport because that might be considered safer; they should not have to make telephone calls to friends or family while making journeys so that somebody can track their journey’s progress; they should not have to ask male relatives or friends to meet them at bus stops or stations in order to accompany them on the final part of the journey home; and they should not have to wear flat shoes or trainers in order to be able to run away or escape if necessary.

People spoke of the need for a more visible police presence—that point was raised earlier—and that is the case in general, not just on public transport.

I was pleased to see that staff were also spoken to. I have been working very closely with Women in Rail. We will have an event in the Parliament later this year, and I note that Natalie Don will host an event for Women in Transport next week. We will not get women to work in the industry if it does not feel safe.

The recommendations in the report are sensible but not surprising. They include using technology; sharing best practice; providing better information for women; dealing with drunks; improving lighting; doing more research and training with drivers of public transport and reviewing the training that is already offered; and having more staff at boarding points. That final point is key, and it should make ministers here and elsewhere think before cutting back.

I am sure that we are in for a good and consensual debate today. I commend the minister for commissioning the research, as well as those who carried it out and took part in it.

I move amendment S6M-08122.2, to insert at end:

“; notes the 10th anniversary of British Transport Police’s (BTP) Text 61016 service in March 2023, and encourages people to use BTP’s free Railway Guardian app, which helps the travelling public and rail staff to report crime to BTP and offers information on what to do if people see sexual harassment on trains or at stations.”

I will just finish my point first.

Drunken behaviour is, of course, something that people must deal with on buses and trains. I am not out late too often, but I would try to avoid the last train home, especially if I am out with my wife.

Member after member has raised the issue of a lack of data. We should not just be getting data from the police; we should be getting it from railway staff, too. What the minister has just said will be extremely useful if we are going to have an on-going campaign, because an on-going campaign is what we need. A debate such as this is fine, but it will probably get very little attention. We just need to keep it going to raise awareness.

Ferguson Marine faced being struck off because it had not filed its accounts on time. Is there, as has been reported, an £11 million shortfall between what the firm has been asking for and what the Government has agreed to give it? Will that impact on the building of ferries?

I am not here to defend the minister, but it is clear from the report that staff were spoken to. That perhaps addresses Katy Clark’s point about unions.

I had hoped that this would be a consensual debate. I completely reject that, because I fully accept that women face particular issues on public transport. Everyone faces issues, but that applies to women in particular.

The coping strategy that I have just described is something that women must always think of. For them, drunken and boorish behaviour can be especially stressful. I note the report’s recommendation on that, but it is a tricky issue and I do not think that we can have a one-size-fits-all approach.

Work that was carried out before the pandemic showed that more than half of women in London had been victims of unwanted sexual behaviour while travelling on public transport. The most common type of incident, which was experienced by more than a third of women and 12 per cent of men, was a stranger deliberately pressing themselves up against a person. I noted in the minister’s report a section on invasion of space and a description of men sitting next to women when other seats were available. I am not sure that any of us likes that, but that would be particularly uncomfortable for a woman.

Transport Focus published its “Experiences of women and girls on transport” report in March 2022. It collected the views of 1,200 females across Great Britain. Most said that they felt “very safe” or “reasonably safe” across different modes of transport. The number of respondents who felt “very safe” ranged from 15 to 30 per cent. That is in comparison with the 59 per cent of respondents who said that they felt “very safe” using a car.

When planning or making a journey, 85 per cent of respondents thought about their safety. The types of mitigations that were taken included travelling at particular times of day, using specific routes, avoiding certain types of transport and travelling with others. I suspect that we will hear that throughout the debate.

The incidents that were described by respondents included sexual assaults, intimidating or predatory encounters, being physically assaulted or threatened and feeling unsafe due to antisocial behaviour. Around half the respondents said that they had felt threatened when making a journey on public transport. More than two in five had been subjected to verbal aggression and 14 per cent said that they had been physically threatened or assaulted when making a journey on public transport.

Transport Scotland produced a very useful report in June last year. The section on personal safety issues said that data from the Scottish household survey shows that twice as many women as men disagree that they feel safe and secure on the bus and train in the evening. In addition, twice as many women as men cite concerns for personal safety on dark or lonely roads as a barrier to cycling to work. We have not mentioned cycling yet.

United Kingdom data from the UK Government Equalities Office shows that, in 2020, of those who had experienced sexual harassment in the previous 12 months, 28 per cent had experienced it on public transport.

There are similar issues in relation to rail travel. Statistics from the British Transport Police show that there were 63 reports of sexual assault on ScotRail trains between 2017 and 2021.

Yes, I would. That issue is mentioned in the report that the minister commissioned. Greater staff and police presence would be a great help.

Women-only train carriages have been suggested as a possible solution to safety concerns, but I agree with my good friend Mick Hogg, from the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, that that would be a logistical nightmare. I hope that he is watching.

The minister has told of her own experiences, and I think that she was quite right to commission the research that she did. The report is very fair and shows that there are no easy answers. It also shows that women’s experiences differ, not just from those of men but from those of other women. Some of the strategies that are used in order to keep safe are also used by men.