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The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 23 November 2023
Graham Simpson
That is really interesting. You have described a system in which police are, I presume, not having to sit in accident and emergency for hours at a time.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 23 November 2023
Graham Simpson
That is interesting. All the rest of you need to work with Richmond and do what he asks, then.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 23 November 2023
Graham Simpson
I want to go back to Tracey McKigen’s answer to the previous question. When you are dealing with young people, in particular, and you are having online consultations, how do you ensure that there is nobody else in the room prodding them to say certain things?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 23 November 2023
Graham Simpson
I will try to keep the conversation going, as always, convener.
In my questions over the past couple of weeks, I have been exploring gaps in the system as it relates to the police. I am sure that this is the same for our colleagues in Wales, but the police tell us that they spend the majority of their time—up to 80 per cent—dealing with people with mental health problems rather than with crime. They are called out to people with mental health problems; that is what they are doing for up to 80 per cent of the time.
There should be no such thing as out of hours when we are talking about mental health, but there is. The services of some of the people who are in this meeting shut down at certain times, and perhaps that is part of the problem. Whole squads of police are sat in hospital accident and emergency departments with people, waiting for them to be seen.
I have heard that, in Lanarkshire, which the convener and I represent, police officers have spent entire shifts sat in hospitals with people. The police have had to introduce what I think is an informal system with NHS Lanarkshire that means that, if they have to do that, they pick up the phone and say, “Look, can you help us out and start moving people through the system?” Does anyone have a better system for working with the police?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 23 November 2023
Graham Simpson
Is anyone aware of anything similar elsewhere in Scotland?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 23 November 2023
Graham Simpson
That is fascinating. It is obvious that we have a bit of a patchwork of systems in Scotland. Some places are apparently doing very well, while others are doing less well. The committee would love to hear more details of the schemes that have been described to us. If the witnesses could send us more information, that would be good.
Have any of the people here today had a look at the model that is referred to in the report that operates in Trieste in Italy? Essentially, it is a 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week service to which people can go. There is no waiting list, so people can just turn up. One of the side benefits is that it has saved money, but it has also led to a better service for the people who need it. Have any of you had a look at that model? If so, what do you think of it? I will pick on Hannah Axon.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 16 November 2023
Graham Simpson
Yes?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 16 November 2023
Graham Simpson
It is, and it is good to know that other people want to come in on this important question.
I was about to say that it is encouraging to hear what Derek Frew said about the project in Forth Valley—I would like to know a little bit more about that—and the discussion that is coming up on 22 November. It is great that we are examining the issue. It would be good if we could get to a system whereby, even if police are called out, they can contact somebody else who can take on the case.
Convener, I do not know who you want to bring in.
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 16 November 2023
Graham Simpson
Oh, do they?
Public Audit Committee
Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”
Meeting date: 16 November 2023
Graham Simpson
I am sure that officers on the ground will tell you—as they will tell any of us—that the police are risk averse. That is not a criticism, by the way; it is just the reality.
You mentioned the situation down south. Ultimately, the solution will come down to finding the best way of dealing with people who have mental health problems and who need help. The question is: are the police the best people to do that? The answer is sometimes yes, but it is often no. That has been examined down south. The police there have a system called the right care, right person approach. Humberside Police took that up and it believes that, on average, 1,400 officer hours every month have been saved by adopting that different approach. If it was applied across the whole of England, it could save up to 1 million police hours a year. That shows that it is a good thing from a resources point of view to deal with things differently.
We should not completely rule out what is being done in England. We should look at whether we can learn from it, because we do not want Police Scotland to be tied up dealing with cases that are not its job.
