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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 May 2025
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Displaying 1881 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

That is fascinating. It is obvious that we have a bit of a patchwork of systems in Scotland. Some places are apparently doing very well, while others are doing less well. The committee would love to hear more details of the schemes that have been described to us. If the witnesses could send us more information, that would be good.

Have any of the people here today had a look at the model that is referred to in the report that operates in Trieste in Italy? Essentially, it is a 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week service to which people can go. There is no waiting list, so people can just turn up. One of the side benefits is that it has saved money, but it has also led to a better service for the people who need it. Have any of you had a look at that model? If so, what do you think of it? I will pick on Hannah Axon.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

That is honest of you, Richmond. It sounds as though you recognise everything that the Auditor General is saying. There is data in one part of the system, and data in another part, but nobody is collecting it. It is probably your job to collect it, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

That is good, because hospitals in Lothian deal with that on the ground.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

We have set up integration joint boards, but sometimes it does not sound as if they very integrated.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Good. I think that you all need to go and see Richmond Davies and get your acts together.

Hannah Axon wanted to come in. I think that you will then want to move on, convener.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Are you getting resistance from anyone?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 16 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Oh, do they?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 16 November 2023

Graham Simpson

We could spend ages on that subject, but I will move on.

I want to chat to Derek Frew about the police’s involvement in mental health cases, because that has been a big concern of mine for a while now, having spoken to police in my patch. Both the convener and I represent Central Scotland, which includes Lanarkshire. When I speak to the police there—I think that, nationwide, other police say the same—they tell me that the amount of time that officers spend dealing with mental health cases can be very great. The figure that I was given locally was that 80 per cent of cases involve mental health issues, which I found astonishing.

I have also heard locally that there have been incidents where entire shifts of officers have had to sit with people in accident and emergency and so have been unable to deal with other cases. That seems to me to be a ludicrous situation and not a good use of resources. I ask you to comment on that initially, then we will move on.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 16 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Before I speak about the police—I will speak to Derek Frew about that, obviously—I want to go back to something that Dr Williams said. I raised the difficulty that people face in getting to see a GP in our evidence session last week. It has become much more difficult. You almost have to get past the receptionist, whereas before, you could phone up, ask for an appointment and be given one. Now people have to explain what is wrong with them to somebody who is not a GP. I do not know whether you agree with me, but that must put people off, particularly people with mental health issues. They may not want to discuss it, so people will be put off and we will miss people. What do you think about that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 16 November 2023

Graham Simpson

I am sure that officers on the ground will tell you—as they will tell any of us—that the police are risk averse. That is not a criticism, by the way; it is just the reality.

You mentioned the situation down south. Ultimately, the solution will come down to finding the best way of dealing with people who have mental health problems and who need help. The question is: are the police the best people to do that? The answer is sometimes yes, but it is often no. That has been examined down south. The police there have a system called the right care, right person approach. Humberside Police took that up and it believes that, on average, 1,400 officer hours every month have been saved by adopting that different approach. If it was applied across the whole of England, it could save up to 1 million police hours a year. That shows that it is a good thing from a resources point of view to deal with things differently.

We should not completely rule out what is being done in England. We should look at whether we can learn from it, because we do not want Police Scotland to be tied up dealing with cases that are not its job.