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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 July 2025
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Displaying 2221 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

We move to agenda item 4, which is an evidence session for the committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII powers. I welcome our first panel of witnesses. Rosemary Agnew is the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman, Lloyd Austin is the convener of Scottish Environment LINK, Jonnie Hall is the deputy chief executive officer and director of policy at the NFU Scotland, and Adam Stachura is the associate director for policy communications and external affairs at Age Scotland.

Do not worry about turning on the microphones, because that will happen automatically. If you would like to answer a question, please raise your hand or indicate to the clerks. There is no need to answer every question, but please feel free to provide a written follow-up to any question after the meeting. We plan to spend approximately one hour on questions before we move on to our second panel of witnesses.

In your written submissions, you have all expressed your views on when framework bills are appropriate and when they are less appropriate. Are there particular policy areas for which framework legislation might be more appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

I think it is fair to say that, certainly in this committee, because it is not a subject policy area committee, a lot less of that takes place. That has been a consistent approach for many, many years in this committee, in contrast to other committees.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

It is helpful, and it is very thought provoking. Thank you, Michael.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

We heard last week about the spectrum. It is fair to say that it would be difficult to get to an exact definition of framework or skeletal legislation. However, we heard last week and this morning about a potential set of criteria for considering framework or skeletal legislation.

I read out the three points that NFU Scotland made in its submission earlier and I will read them out again for the witnesses to hear:

“1) There is a need to deliver flexibility and adaptivity to mitigate possible future challenges.

2) Extensive work is undertaken with relevant stakeholders before and during the parliamentary process.

3) A clear indication of the overall required outcomes is set out by the Scottish Government.”

Would those three points aid any definition of or assistance with what people consider to be framework legislation and the scrutiny of said legislation? I will start with Vicky Crichton.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

Thank you very much. I call Roz McCall.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

I call Jeremy Balfour.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

Daniel Johnson has a supplementary question before I bring in Roz McCall.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

That takes us nicely to the next question regarding definitions. Last week, the committee heard evidence on whether there should be a definition of framework legislation, and it came across very clearly that that that would be difficult, because such legislation is a spectrum rather than something that is set hard and fast. That has helped to shape what the evidence sessions going forward will be. We also considered whether framework bills should be labelled as such when they are introduced in Parliament. Would labelling bills as framework bills be useful for stakeholders and help to improve scrutiny? If so, why?

I will start with you, Adam, since you went into this debate first.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

I am sure that you could. [Laughter.]

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Stuart McMillan

I welcome our second panel of witnesses. Michael Clancy is director of law reform at the Law Society of Scotland; Vicky Crichton is director of public policy at the Scottish Legal Complaints Commission and Kay Springham KC is from the Faculty of Advocates.

Before we start, I remind witnesses not to worry about the microphones because they will be switched on automatically, and do not feel that you have to answer every question. Simply indicate if a question is not for you—that is fine—and if you want to come in, please indicate to me or the clerks. We plan to allow approximately one hour for questions. Panel 1 overran a little.

I move directly to questions. I am conscious that the witnesses were sitting in the public gallery for the first evidence session, so you will have heard some of the first panel’s comments, and you will have seen the Official Report of last week’s meeting. Should a definition of framework legislation be agreed between the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament, and if so, why? How would a definition aid scrutiny? The first panel of witnesses discussed that a great deal. Could having a definition have any unintended consequences?