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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 24 January 2026
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Displaying 620 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I will be, convener. My question picks up on Sharon Dowey’s points but more specifically on the Finance and Public Administration Committee’s comment to us, Ms Gosal, that your assumption in the financial memorandum—that each caseworker who deals with MAPPA notification requirements has a case allocation of between 50 and 60—is not correct. It says that, according to COSLA, that

“is in ‘direct conflict with the Social Work Scotland Setting the Bar report, which advised that 20-25 cases per worker was manageable and safe’”

and that

“East Renfrewshire Health and Social Care Partnership, South Lanarkshire Council, and Police Scotland agreed with COSLA’s view that the FM sets an unrealistic caseload target.”

You have just said that you do not think that there will be any changes to your estimate, but how do you respond to what the committee has said?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

So it could be quite a bit higher—

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

You said again that we have had only two evidence sessions on the bill. I have taken a bill through the Parliament with the full support of the Government and I recognise the work that goes into that, so I understand the work that will have gone into taking your member’s bill forward. You said that you set out to do so three and a half years ago. The cut-off point for introducing a member’s bill was in June last year, and you introduced yours in May. Do you accept that the point at which you introduced the bill will inevitably have limited the amount of time that we have to look at it?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I am aware of that.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I appreciate your position, but I am asking whether you think that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and Police Scotland are wrong.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I am asking what you would say in response if they raised the same issue about any other bill.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

Returning to UNCRC compliance, I did not, to be frank, think that this would be raised as an issue in evidence, but the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Office flagged it almost as an aside.

Indeed, I was struck by what was said when I asked about the matter in our evidence session with the COPFS and the Law Society of Scotland. You have said that you are clear that the bill has no UNCRC compliance issues, but I will quote from the Official Report of a previous meeting. When I asked Dr Forbes from the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service whether she had

“the sense that not enough thought has been given to the issue of compliance with the UNCRC at this stage”,

she replied:

“I did not see it addressed in the policy memorandum, I have to say.”

When I further asked Dr Forbes whether she felt that not enough due consideration had been given to the issue and whether there was

“a possibility that the bill as drafted might fall foul of our legislation with regard to compliance with the UNCRC”. —[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 10 December 2025; c 23.],

she gave a preamble but, effectively, her answer to the question was yes. Why is the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service wrong and you are right?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

I do not think that Scottish Women’s Aid was necessarily saying that it would apply to their organisation specifically. It was talking about the burden that the bureaucracy would place on Police Scotland, and so on.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

Well, let us suppose that you were. Where should it come from?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 January 2026

Jamie Hepburn

Okay.