Chamber and committees

Let me come back on that, because I do not understand the point that you are making. Are you suggesting that it is illegitimate for us to invest in that project? That is something that we are doing, and it is the type of response that you will see from the Scottish Government in investing in Scotland’s college estate.

We have seen that in the recent past, with the first-class facilities at Forth Valley College, for example. I am sure that Mr Marra has had the opportunity to visit those facilities, which are a direct result of investment by this Administration. We are looking to do the same with the Dunfermline learning campus, albeit that I am still waiting for the final proposition. We are committed to investing in Scotland’s college estate.

To go back to a point that I have made already, there is a significant constraint on public resource right now. That applies not only to our revenue budgets; it is also the case for our capital budgets. Mr Marra will understand that those budgets are under further pressure as a result of things such as inflationary pressure.

I recognise that that has been said—it has been said to me directly. It is not my view that colleges are second class or second rate by comparison to any other element of our education system. I believe that we have a continuum of education provision and that each element is as important as the others, from early years, through school to community learning and development—I will be candid and say that I have heard them say some of those things, too, as, I am sure, has Mr Marra—to colleges and universities. It is not my perception, and I have gone over in some detail—

First, I heard that evidence and I agree with what was said to the committee by college principals—and not only college principals, because you also heard from other folk from the business community and from elsewhere who said that similar relationships have been established that might not have been possible in days gone by. The figures that you quoted are a very positive indication of the benefits of regionalisation, and I continue to see more being done in that regard.

I recently had a very useful visit to Queen Margaret University, on which I was told about the clear pathways that have been established in conjunction with various colleges, which mean that a student who enters the college environment will understand at the outset that that pathway is available to them, rather than having to think, on getting their higher national certificate or higher national diploma, “What next?” Such students are aware at the outset that that opportunity exists. I want there to be more of that type of activity, and I want the sector to lead on that.

The positive news is that I think that that is happening in an enhanced way in a number of locations. These are not exclusive examples—there are others—but Forth Valley College has a good set-up with the University of Stirling when it comes to articulation pathways, as does North East Scotland College with Robert Gordon University. However, I would like there to be more of the advanced articulation that you referred to. The numbers that have been mentioned are welcome, but I would like there to be more cases of people who have acquired qualifications at college being able to go on to university and to enter it in second or third year. Through our learner journey activity, we want to work with the college and university sector on that.

Having said all that, I want to make the important point that, although colleges are a valuable means of articulation, we should recognise that HNCs and HNDs are very valuable qualifications in their own right, the gaining of which should be celebrated. If someone wants to take one of those qualifications and enter the world of work on that basis, that should be celebrated and welcomed, too.

I will certainly do my best. I admire Mr Doris’s methodology of asking his supplementaries in one question.

There are a few things at play there, and I will take the last point first. I do not think that it is unfair—it is certainly not meant to be—to ask the board to consider various propositions in order to inform SFC’s considerations of what it might recommend to me. To be clear, the regional boards will not make any specific decision on what the structure might be, but it is appropriate that they are asked to consider various issues and to be involved in any process.

On the fundamental question—to which we have returned a number of times—of guarantees for the colleges in Glasgow, all that I can guarantee is that I am not driving any particular process of merger in the city of Glasgow, and I am not aware of there being such a process under way at all. Any proposition would need to emerge from the institutions themselves. We can look at what has happened in other parts of the country—for example, in the Highlands and Islands, where colleges themselves are in dialogue. Neither I nor the SFC made that request; we want to empower institutions to make decisions for themselves. I can certainly give Mr Doris the reassurance that I am not going to drive that particular agenda.

However, it is important—and I hope that you would agree that it is not unreasonable—to have a forum in which the three colleges in Glasgow can have dialogue. We need to maximise provision across the city as a whole, reduce duplication and, if there are any gaps in provision, work through them to make sure that they are filled between the three colleges. Trying to get that balance right is, of course, appropriate.

The SFC is considering what the structure might look like in Glasgow, and it will make a recommendation to me. That is appropriate, because—frankly and candidly—we have only three multicollege regions. One of those is based on its also being a university institution, so I think that people understand why that is in place. The other two are Lanarkshire and Glasgow, and it is appropriate to consider whether that is still required.

Again, if Mr Marra wants us to invest more in the area, and if he comes forward with suggestions as to where the money can come from, I am more than willing to listen. We are committed to investing—

That is not under active consideration. It is not something that we are specifically looking at. Various things can be considered as we move forward, but that is not something that I envisage us looking at, because it would immediately embed an additional layer of complexity and unintended consequences. I hope that that provides some reassurance.

You asked me to explain what I mean about being cognisant of some of the challenges. I do not know how to explain that any more specifically. I am conscious of, and understand, the challenges. We have seen a very real shock to the international order this year, and that continues to have a wider influence on global affairs. It does not particularly affect this area of life in Scotland, but it demonstrates that events come along and can change things. What I mean by that is that we must work with the sector to recognise that events like that can happen. Where that might have a particular impact on the sector as a whole or, as is more likely, on specific institutions, how do we deal with that? How do we ensure that institutions can continue to undertake their work if such an event comes along?

Regarding a timescale, I am happy to follow that up with the committee and give you some more detail of the work that we are undertaking on strategy.

We are looking at that just now, and it is an inextricable part of the budget process.

We made certain commitments, through our manifesto and through our programme for government, and I am very clear that we need to meet those commitments in the first instance. What we might do beyond that must be informed by our engagement with the sector.

I understand and recognise that the sector sees value in the investment that has been made in mental health counsellors. However, we also have to be informed by the student mental health action plan that we are going to introduce in conjunction with the sector.

We have a student mental health and wellbeing working group, which rightly involves the National Union of Students and other representatives of the sector, to make sure that any decisions that we make are made on an informed basis and that we are responding to what I recognise are significant challenges in terms of the mental wellbeing of Scotland’s student population. It has been an enormously difficult period, through Covid-19 and now with the cost of living crisis, and that will bring its pressures to bear on the student population and their sense of wellbeing. Our strategy is going to be well timed in that regard. How we resource and structure it thereafter is a matter for wider consideration in line with the ordinary budget process that we have in place.

We are actively looking at the matter. The SFC spoke to the committee about it. We cannot magically resolve the issue overnight, but we are looking at it and are determined to resolve it satisfactorily. We are trying to get the balance right, and I have spoken about some of the inherent challenges involved in doing so, but we are looking at the issue, and I hope that the committee welcomes that.

As, I think, Mr Kerr knows fine well, I would be leading the committee astray if I were to say that I would be able to resolve the issue in a month.

I am telling you, if you will let me answer.