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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
Is there a timescale for that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
Maybe you can comment on the fact that—
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
Auditor General, I initially want to cover staffing levels and so on, which we have touched on already. Let us look at paragraphs 20 to 22. Paragraph 22 discusses
“a decrease of between 20 and 25 per cent on required levels.”
There is also a comment about “comparatively low pay” and you have made a comparison with supermarkets. It seems to me that there are only three possible reasons for that. Either there are no staff to recruit, with a shortage of staff in the market and difficulties with retention; the staff levels have been dropped in order to make the contract financially sustainable for the company, as deliberate policy; or, leading off from the possibility that staff levels were cut by the company to make the contract sustainable, and linked into that, there has been a deliberate suppression of salary levels. Later in the report, you mention increased salary levels being offered in order to recruit staff. Why was that not done earlier?
What, in your opinion, is behind the decrease in staffing levels? Was it deliberate? Is it the market? What is it?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
Will you be in a position to monitor the contract and the bidding process as that work goes forward?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
What support is the Scottish Government providing with regard to that process?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
I will move on to the final couple of questions. In paragraph 37, reference is made to the greater number of older prisoners in the system. At last week’s evidence session on NHS Forth Valley, comment was made about the ageing prison population and the increased pressure on the NHS as a result of that. What is the impact of a greater number of older prisoners? What level of support is required? There seems to be an implication that we should have a care facility in prisons. A number of reasons, such as sentencing and historical sex abuse cases, have been put forward to explain why the prison population is so much older. How is that impacting on the NHS and the SPS?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
You said that the Prison Service is responsible for providing care. I presume that the prison officers have not been trained in that particular area. Do prisons bring in resources from outside—people who are qualified to provide that care?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
There is a cost to the Prison Service in bringing in services. I am trying to understand the impact on prison officers and the Prison Service of providing that care. Are Prison Service resources used or are independent resources brought in? You seem to be saying that the latter happens only for the more extreme cases and that the Prison Service deals with the day-to-day stuff, for want of a better expression.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
You mentioned prisoners who have dementia. I presume that, at some point, they reach a stage at which it is not even clear to them that they are in prison. Is there a process whereby such prisoners are transitioned into an existing care facility outside the Prison Service?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 February 2024
Colin Beattie
I am simply trying to understand whether the realities of the situation are looked at sensibly.
My final question is on the prison estate. Among the issues that have been reported on the condition of the prison estate are underspends in the capital budget and savings that have been made from reduced planned maintenance. Do you have any particular concerns about that? Those findings seem odd, given other comments that have been made about the estate.