Chamber and committees

I appreciate that the Conservative members of the committee might agree with the approach taken to the coronavirus by the UK Government, but, if a senior management team of an institution took more of a Boris Johnson approach to dealing with coronavirus rather than listening to public health guidance, such as we have up here, we would need the powers to deal with that. Otherwise, large institutions with thousands of staff and thousands of students, that are integral part of our communities, will be able to take a very different approach to dealing with coronavirus than the Government does, and I do not think that that would be particularly welcome in our university towns and cities across the country.

We absolutely need to take account of the different scenarios that will arise. Boarding schools and school residences are unique environments. Throughout the pandemic, we worked closely with the Scottish Council of Independent Schools and individual schools to reflect their special circumstances in the measures, particularly for boarding schools.

It is important that we are cognisant of the fact that we are dealing with young people who are away from home and that, in essence, those places are their homes during term time. It is about providing the foundation for the correct support and ensuring that we do not make any unnecessary calls on that sector. We want to ensure that young people can still have their education and be supported, but that that happens in a safe way that recognises that, for example, many pupils might come from different parts of the United Kingdom or from across the world.

Obviously, there is a specific requirement to ensure that what is put in place for boarding schools and school residences takes that type of environment into account. However, I suppose that it comes down to the same types of issues about provision of support and the protection of the wider public. The guidance on how we might do that will be very different for university halls compared to boarding schools. However, the continuity that runs through the measures in the bill is to do with support and the protection of public health.

For the reasons that I have read out—because I believe that some evidence that was given was based on a misunderstanding that there had been a derogation from aspects of the ECHR. We will of course continue to discuss that with the children’s commissioner.

As I said in a previous answer, we very much believe that the issue has been looked at seriously. The bill has safeguards around how the powers can be used. It has safeguards to ensure that we have regard to public health advice from the chief medical officer, and that any measures are necessary, proportionate and time specific.

I am confident that we have this right, but we will continue to work with stakeholders who have concerns to see what can be done to alleviate those concerns as the bill passes through Parliament. I absolutely appreciate that the committee is concerned about what the commissioner’s office said. I give the reassurance that we are very confident in where we are at, but we will continue the conversations with stakeholders.

I say with the greatest respect that we are taking our time. How long the bill takes to go through Parliament is up to Parliament—

No. We would get into that area only because of public health measures regulations. We are absolutely clear and confident that the bill does not affect the charitable status of universities.

I agree with Mr Ewing that days are critical. Earlier, I mentioned the requirement to be able to make decisions at speed. Days really count when we are talking about the impact of a virus on public health—we have seen that serious impact very clearly during the coronavirus pandemic.

I appreciate that Universities Scotland has concerns about the granularity of the powers. I will not comment on the example that Mr Sim decided to give to the committee. I attempt to work in partnership with universities and, if they have concerns about those aspects, the Government is happy discuss them with Universities Scotland. I appreciate that there are concerns about that, but Universities Scotland needs to see where the Government is coming from in relation to why we feel that we need the powers. On that basis, I hope that we can reach a better understanding with Universities Scotland than we have at the moment.

If we have learned anything during Covid, it is that we, as a Parliament, work better on public health measures when we are united, if we can be.

As the pandemic has gone on, the Government has continued to learn lessons about whether the powers that we have had have been effective and whether there are any limitations to or difficulties with those powers in dealing with the coronavirus pandemic. Had we gone through two years of the coronavirus and not felt that the proposals that we were bringing forward would deal with the coronavirus, we would not be putting them forward. Indeed, over the past two years, stakeholders would have made it very clear if they felt that the powers that we had were not helping us to deal with the coronavirus.

However, we must try to ensure that this bill is able to deal with not just another wave of the coronavirus, but other public health emergencies as they might arise. In this bill, we are trying to make sure not only that we are ready for the coronavirus, but that the powers would work for other public health measures. In drafting the education parts of the bill, we have looked very carefully at how the powers have worked in practice and, importantly, how stakeholders have felt that the powers have worked in practice, as we have used or not used them during the past two years.

You are quite right to point out the importance of this being about regulations rather than direction and the process that must be gone through to ensure that regulations are brought in through the parliamentary system. As well as ministers having to have regard to the advice of the CMO on protecting public health, we must be satisfied that any regulations that we bring in are necessary and proportionate for the continued provision of education. Parliamentary approval is required before any regulations are made or, where necessary—when regulations are made for reasons of urgency—within 28 days of the date on which they are made. In addition, any regulations will apply only for a specified period and will be subject to review every 21 days.

I hope that that signals to the committee the fact that safeguards are in place. Although the Government will be able to work quickly in a public health emergency, we will certainly not make change for change’s sake, given the safeguarding mechanisms that the bill rightly contains to prevent us from making unnecessary changes.

That is an important point, which points to a lesson that was learned in relation to how the bill would be framed, compared with the way in which the emergency legislation—which was considered at great speed, necessarily, and to the best of Parliament’s ability—was framed. As the pandemic moved on, Parliament became concerned about the fact that safeguards were not in place, simply because of the speed with which the Coronavirus (Scotland) Bill went through Parliament and became an act. We have given serious consideration to that, which is why the safeguards are in place in the bill.

As you pointed out, it is right that we look at the whole package, which includes not only individual aspects that could be included in the regulations, but the steps that would have to be taken before we got to the point of having regulations with those specifics in them. It is important to bear in mind the overall package.