Chamber and committees

As we went through the refresh, particularly with the introduction of stretch aims, we were keen to ensure that we were not asking local authorities or schools to carry out work that they were not already doing, because we did not want to put an additional burden into the system. The way that the refresh has worked is that it has been done in collaboration with the Scottish Government, and the determination of what could be involved in the stretch aims will involve things that are already part of school improvement plans and local authorities’ work. It is important to me that, as we look at this, we do not put further pressure on the system at any time, but particularly at this time.

National accountability is very important, but I hope that there will also be an ability to have local accountability for the stretch aims and for what happens in local authorities, with discussion at any time, whether that is through the committee, through elections or whatever. It is important to have that accountability at different levels. However, at the national level, it sits with me.

I have been heartened by the overall acceptance of the need to ensure that there is excellence and equity in education. I do not think that that is just a national Government thing; it is also accepted by local government. At both the local and national Government levels, we need to continue to look at what we can do in our different areas in order to see progress. There will be some aspects that national Government should rightly be challenged on, and there are some aspects that rightly sit within local government’s focus, on which it should be challenged and asked to consider doing more.

We touched earlier on the variation within and across local authorities. The data that we have suggests that that variation is marked, and if we can tackle that, we should do so. That is another lens for looking at the poverty-related attainment gap, because it cannot all be explained by different poverty levels in different parts of Scotland. I think that there is a real desire and a determination in local government to tackle the poverty-related attainment gap. That is a shared endeavour between local and national Government. When my COSLA counterpart is elected to their position, I will be keen to meet them to continue the discussion on how we can take that forward within our different responsibilities.

The easiest way for me to answer that is probably to direct the committee to the evidence that it took from the directors of education, and Ruth Binks in particular. She said that they were very much told that they were pathfinders who were to look at how to make things work. There is always a wish for funding to continue over a number of years, but I think that that was clear. The pathfinders were very successful in trying out different models, looking at what worked in their systems and ensuring that the learning was shared not only in their local authority, but with others. The easiest way for me to answer the question is probably to point to the evidence that the director of education in Inverclyde gave when she was at committee.

One of the lessons that came across loud and clear—not just in this part of Government, but in other parts—was a wish for longer-term guarantees of funding in order to allow better longer-term planning. That was understandable, and it particularly came across from headteachers who wanted to plan out the PEF part of the Scottish attainment challenge funding. I was very cognisant of that and we were pleased to be able to deliver it. It will allow schools and local authorities to do more long-term planning and ensure that there is a bit more continuity—for example, in the staff who are there for young people.

At the individual school level, there is the school improvement plan work. Parents and indeed young people should play an important part in that. We should not forget the importance of listening to young people as part of that work. In the national setting, we are very keen to ensure that the voice of parents comes through in different parts of policy right across education. We have connections at both official and ministerial levels with parents’ groups and we hear directly from them. They also play an important part in the Scottish education council, which ensures that they are involved.

Although teachers know their young people best and we should have an empowered system, part of a headteacher’s work is to take account of parents’ views as they deliver school improvement work, and I think that that is to everyone’s benefit.

With this type of work, there are two possible approaches. We could do it with a top-down approach, where I sit in St Andrew’s house dictating policy and a target, or we can work with local government, which has responsibility to deliver education. We are working in partnership between national and local government so that local authorities can set the aims that are correct for their areas. There will be different local authority aims as they come through. I prefer not to have a top-down approach; I prefer to work with local government. Of course, our ambition is no less than to close the attainment gap, but we need to recognise that that is a long-term endeavour. Indeed, you quoted Audit—

You quoted Audit Scotland, which has said:

“Reducing the poverty-related attainment gap is a complex challenge and will take time”.

It will take time to deliver the reductions in the poverty-related attainment gap, but we are determined to see a greater pace of progress than we had before the pandemic, and the stretch aims are an important part of that.

I am clear that we need more transparency in the area. As a national Government, we have listened to what Audit Scotland has said. Once the data is in a state that can be published and once we have collated all the data from the local authorities, absolutely, I see no reason not to publish. I would, of course, expect local authorities to publish the data as and when they set their stretch aims, because that is part of their local improvement work. There should not be a secretive manner of development at local or national level. We will absolutely make sure that material is published to allow people to see what is happening locally and at a national level.

Approximately, yes.

I appreciate that there are different measures that we could use, but I have explained the reason why we decided to stay with PEF. I have also explained that I decided to change other parts of the system in recognition of the fact that poverty exists right across Scotland. The fact that we are not using the Scottish index of multiple deprivation, or not using a bid process, which is what has happened before, allowed us to look at children and low-income families who needed help right across Scotland, including in rural areas.