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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 August 2025
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Displaying 1025 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

That will all be from the teacher census, in essence. The census gives the national statistics on teacher numbers. The numbers on pupil support assistants are not published in December; as I referred to previously, they are published in March. When you look at where the baseline is for each of the years and where the numbers that I quoted came from, you will see that those are from the teacher census.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

In the letter that I have just issued on teacher numbers, I recognise that pupil numbers have decreased, and are expected to decrease in some local authority areas while some others will experience an increase. It is clear that, in certain local authorities, it would be possible keep the pupil teacher ratio the same with a reduction in teachers. That is something that local authorities could look at.

However, the challenge that we face is that we also want to improve attainment, and it is clear—the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s research supports this—that teacher numbers and teacher quality have an impact on attainment. Therefore, a decreasing pupil roll is not necessarily a reason to reduce teacher numbers, particularly if an authority is considering how it can support pupils from the poorest communities or pupils who, for whatever reason, are struggling in school. Teachers can be used in different ways.

The pupil teacher ratio is important, but so, too, is how the overall teaching workforce is used. When it comes to expenditure, whether pupil numbers go up or go down has an impact on the funding that goes to local authorities.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

When it comes to the challenge authorities, parts of my letter to local authorities recognise that we might need to take into account exceptional circumstances. I mentioned recruitment and retention earlier; we would take cognisance, too, of the changes to challenge authorities.

I fully appreciate the difficult decisions that local authorities have to make. I said in my opening statement that local authorities have very difficult decisions to make, just as the Scottish Government did as we put our budget together. We have—this is a joint understanding—a desire to improve attainment. I have yet to see any suggestion that reductions in teacher numbers or pupil support assistants would help to close the poverty-related attainment gap.

If we want to get those education fundamentals in place, we have to take the decisions. If we have a joint understanding about why money has been put into a budget, it is not surprising that local government would wish to provide further challenge to local authorities to ensure that that money was spent in that way.

Local authorities have to make very difficult decisions on other areas of their expenditure. However, to go back to the point that we made earlier when we were discussing the budget that was set yesterday, the Deputy First Minister introduced additional expenditure for local government of more than £700 million, which is a substantial real-terms increase. The decisions that we have taken allowed that to happen.

As I mentioned earlier, no costed proposals came forward from other parties to suggest how that funding could be increased.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

The Government target remains at 3,500 by the end of the year. We have to work with local government colleagues once budgets are set to analyse further projections in-year, and we also need to look at what the ITE number will be. That is not a one-stage process but an iterative process that will go on throughout the year. The Government’s commitment to those numbers remains.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Because we will work closely and carefully with local authorities in-year, there will be a clear understanding from them about what will happen and the implications of that. It is for local authorities to then weigh up whether it would be sensible to carry on strategically cutting teacher numbers because they will know the implications. I do not think that we will get to that situation because, through the collaboration that we will have in-year, they will be very clear about the implications of that and how it might not make financial sense for a council to do it.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Well, you are looking at a hypothetical situation in the future.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

The money is in the budget for next year.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

It now has to be found to be spent on teachers’ pay.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I will have to find that money in year to assist with the pay offer. I go back to the point that I have made all along in the teachers’ pay dispute that, if we increase the capacity for local government to improve its offer as the employer, the money needs to be found and that is not without consequence. That money will be found from the education and skills budget.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Well, I will have to analyse that and make those decisions in year to ensure that the education and skills budget balances. Clearly, though, Mr Kerr, you have been demanding that I take action to improve the pay offer. I have made it clear to you every single time that the only way in which that can be done is by the money being increased—