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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 October 2025
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Displaying 875 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

When I first saw the Gillies report, I tried to find a smoking gun—when did it all start going wrong? However, there is no smoking gun. It is just a systematic failure at every point.

When you look at the collapse, you see that it is largely internal. There is poor financial judgment and failure to act in real time on clear warning signs. There are overly optimistic budgeting assumptions and weak internal controls. There is a lack of transparency and ineffective oversight by the university court and the executive. To me, those are the basics. How did you get to the stage where you ended up in a perfect storm?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

That is the bit that I cannot get. Having been involved as a local councillor with council budgets, and in other organisations, I am of the opinion that, when such savings are asked for, we get stuff back. Here, however, there was something that was complete and utter fantasy. You, or the institution, doubled down the year after. I just do not understand how you could get yourself into that position.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

In March 2024, while all that chaos was going on, there was a communication from the principal, bizarrely praising everyone for their financial resilience, but at that stage the university was in free fall. I still have a difficulty with that. Was there a culture to suppress challenge within the university? Did that come from a senior level? If so, who was responsible for that, Mr Fotheringham?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

What are your thoughts on that, Dr McGeorge?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

If you saw those things happening, did you feel that you could approach the principal and say, “Haud the bus, this is not working”?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

You are all looking good considering the bus that Baroness Alexander flung you under when she said that she was totally moved out from her post. We know that the international student numbers were part of the reason for some of the problems and challenges that you all faced. She said that she was “sidelined” and that she never had the opportunity to be able to talk about anything to do with finance. Dr McGeorge, what is your view on that?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

Right, but she says that she was “sidelined” and that no one spoke to her about finances.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

Okay. Finally, is it correct that the number of individuals who were employed by the international recruitment team skyrocketed in 2023? Did the team end up with more staff when you were already at the stage at which things were starting to show signs of not working?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

For issues such as the student recruitment position, you do not know where you will finally land in any one year until bums start arriving on seats in September. There is an issue around the predictability of international student numbers. As I have said, we felt that we had made appropriate allowance by looking at 25 per cent with the 35 per cent downturn. Obviously, when the numbers started to come through, it was much more than that.

It appears that, in the sector more generally, some types of institutions ended up suffering more than others in that environment. Often, we are talking about institutions that are not in big metropolitan centres and which are non-Russell group. In that regard, whatever the opposite of a sweet spot is, we were in that place.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

George Adam

Perhaps this question is for Mr Fotheringham more than anyone else. Part of the unrealistic budgets was the betterment gimmickry. In essence, those were fictitious cost reductions. Surely, when you went through the management accounts, you would notice that those reductions were not happening. In financial year 2024, £8 million of betterment was never realised. In financial year 2025, it was £23.3 million. The average business in the real world would not get away with fakery like that. How did you, as a public organisation, get to that stage?