Chamber and committees

Good morning. I have been interested in everything that you have been saying, so the issue is where to start at this stage. I will try not to go down a rabbit hole and instead stick to the basic ideas. This is similar to what Keith Brown said, but, having been in Government myself, I can assure you that, every Tuesday morning, there is discussion of the cross-portfolio work and the benefit of some of the stuff that you guys give to Government. However, things become quite difficult during challenging times.

I am reminded of a conversation that I had a few years ago with Sandy Stoddart, the Paisley sculptor. He told me that, during a challenging budget time, he had met a local councillor who had said to him, “Why would I buy one of your installations when we can spend public money on a kidney dialysis machine?” Sandy’s answer was very Sandy. He just went, “What is the point of living?”

I get that argument about the thought of life without colour, without music and without the thrill of the lights going down and the curtain coming up in the theatre. Yes, that is part of the argument, but, the reality is that the Government also has to deal with the challenges. We have heard a lot about the fact the Government should do more cross-portfolio working, but, as organisations, how do you feed in and tell Government about the benefit of what you do? Lyndsey Jackson spoke about this earlier. It is easy to talk about the Edinburgh festival fringe—I get it. In August, people come here from all over the world and the festival generates millions of pounds, but how do we make sure that Government is aware of that and your impact on the economy and everything else? Sometimes, I think that that gets lost in translation. We talk about it, but we need to get that across to people in Cabinet meetings or a local authority meetings.

For example, in a debate this week, I spoke about the Gaelic language and I said that the effect of the Royal National Mòd, which was held in Paisley last year, will potentially be to increase footfall and that it had brought in millions of pounds of new revenue. That was tangible—I can actually say that that money was there. What is the mechanism for getting that information into Government, and where does Creative Scotland come into that, as a conduit for that information between you and the Government?

Good morning. Last night, when I was preparing for the meeting, I looked at your website and your strategic framework, which says that Creative Scotland supports

“the arts, screen and creative industries as a development organisation, a funder, an advocate, and as a public body that seeks to influence others to increase opportunity and maximise the impact our resources can offer.”

A lot of major players in your sector have given evidence in the past couple of weeks and, each time, I have asked the same question: I have asked how they influence others and how they engage with the Government on how their creativity can make a difference in Scotland. When I have asked that question, as I did earlier, not one of the representatives of those organisations has mentioned Creative Scotland as being part of that, so my question is: what is the point of Creative Scotland?

I will tell you exactly what I need from you, Lori. I am buying into the idea. My constituency in Paisley is a post-industrial town. Culture is a major part of the regeneration of that town centre and will be part of the regeneration of town centres throughout Scotland: I want Paisley to be that pilot.

The Ferguslie Park idea is a perfect example of how culture makes a difference in communities. What I need from you, therefore, is to get a loudhailer and make sure that everybody knows and hears that. I will do all that I can on my side, but we really need to go into Government with a sharp elbow, especially in these challenging times. I am just trying to work out what the mechanisms are for you to do so.

Finally, you have admitted that it is quite a crowded landscape. I am buying into what you say, but how do we navigate that crowded landscape to get ourselves to the stage where we are making the cultural change that you keep talking about, Professor Muir?

Thank you and good morning. This follows on from the questions that I asked earlier. I am not going to go on about the cultural part, because we kicked that ball around quite a bit earlier on.

One of the things about inspection is that we know that local authorities appreciate inspections. We know that the education authorities and parents respect the whole process. When we get to the stage of making a decision on how we will go forward, should it be the new chief inspector who makes decisions on the principles of inspection, or should that be in the bill? Probably Professor Donaldson is a good starter for that one.

We talk about a refocused Education Scotland, which to me seems strange: either it is working or it is not working—maybe that is because I am a St Mirren fan and like black and white, but never mind. You have spoken today about cultural change with an open and listening leadership. That sums up everything that you have said today. What does Education Scotland need to do? You are saying that much does not come from the ground up but seems to get stuck in the middle before it gets anywhere near a Government minister hearing about any ideas coming up from the trenches. How do you see that organisation going forward? What changes are needed for some of your ideas, which I have much sympathy with, to work?

It is not so much that they need to know more than a single word. It is more about knowing that parents are engaging with the process when their child is going through education. Parents have got busy lives; it is just a case of finding a way to get the message across.

I take on board what you are saying but do you believe, as Professor Muir says—I suppose that you do as you have spoken about citizens assembly ideas—that we have to engage with all the stakeholders involved to get that idea of cultural change over? Otherwise, I know that in education you can go down one route and then there will be somebody over there in the corner saying, “You forgot about me”.

When I was a councillor, I always knew when there was an inspection, because the jannie would be wanting the bins moved or sorted out so that everything was perfect. That kind of panic tends to happen at school level, too.

You said that the system might be a bit too closed, with too many reports being generated. The problem is that, if a very good report is being discussed at a local authority education committee meeting, a whole bunch of councillors—with multimember wards, it might be four or five councillors—will say, “This is a very good report, and I’m very glad about it.” They, as well as mums and dads, measure the success of a school based on that. You spoke earlier about the idea of league tables. I have a lot of sympathy with what you said, but how can we move away from that kind of culture? That is part of the culture change that you are talking about.

You said earlier that you saw the bill as a foundation for moving on to further reform, and you said that not all of that would have to be legislative. Are we in that kind of aspect? When we talk about cultural change, as John Mason said, that is not all legislative. In the past, the Government has been accused of legislating for far too much, so maybe it is just a case of trying to find a way to get that cultural change, which is a big challenge.

I was going to ask another question about how you do this from the ground up, but you answered that just now, so thank you.