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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 May 2025
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Displaying 774 contributions

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COVID-19 Recovery Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Okay. Thank you.

You mentioned public sector pay. The resource spending review envisages public sector pay being held at 2022-23 levels. That is prior to the increases that have been agreed. Even at that level, the review anticipates that if overall total public sector pay remains the same, but with some increases in pay rates, that infers a reduction in head count across the public sector. If that is to happen, where will the reduction come?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Do any other witnesses want to contribute?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Good morning. I want to ask about how we can rebuild public services. I will start by directing my questions to Sarah Watters.

The Scottish Government’s Covid recovery strategy talks about

“accelerating inclusive, person-centred public services.”

I think that, post-Covid, we have an opportunity to think about whether we can redesign public services to, for example, move towards providing a lot more services online, which we have realised is a lot easier to do than it was previously.

At the same time, the resource spending review proposes substantial increases in health, social care and social security but real-terms cuts across the board in other areas of public spending. How do we square that circle? How do we move towards the more inclusive, person-centred delivery of public services at the same time as we are seeing reductions in the budget?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Does Sarah Watters want to come back in?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 22 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

I am sure that other members of the panel want to come in on this issue, but I have two follow-up questions that relate to what you have just said.

You talked about the overall reduction in local government staff numbers. Do you have any sense of whether overall demand has gone up, gone down or stayed the same compared to the pre-Covid situation?

You mentioned that there was a need for other parts of the public sector to catch up in terms of reform. What parts are you talking about?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Good morning. Before I come to my main question, I want to ask Mary Morgan a follow-up question on the answer that she gave in response to the convener.

I am interested in the numbers that you quoted regarding the reduction in staff in relation to the vaccination programme and contact tracing. Should we—perish the thought—have a new wave of Covid, or a new variant of Covid, as we go into the winter, how practical and realistic would it be for you to staff up again to the numbers that we have seen previously? Do you think that that is going to be necessary? If it is, can you do that without pulling people back out of NHS front-line services, given the tightness of the labour market elsewhere?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

I put the same point to either of your public health colleagues, to see whether they have any comments on the impact on public health in the NHS, should the same thing occur.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

That is helpful, and leads me on neatly to the question that I was going to ask about public sector reform. The convener quoted from “Investing in Scotland’s Future: Resource Spending Review”, which is the background to all this. I will direct this question first to Richard Robinson from Audit Scotland—just so that you are aware, Richard; it is coming to you.

A couple of quotations from the RSR identify that there has been substantial growth in employment in the devolved public sector. The review states that

“continued growth of the public sector away from frontline services is not sustainable”.

It goes on to state that the Scottish Government recognises

“the need to reset the public sector following the COVID-19 pandemic, including by returning to a pre-pandemic size”.

From Audit Scotland’s perspective, how realistic is it to return the public sector to its pre-pandemic size? From a practical point of view, how quickly could that be done and what are the implications of that?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Would any of our NHS colleagues like to come in?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 8 September 2022

Murdo Fraser

Thank you. That is very interesting.

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