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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Current session: 14 May 2026 to 28 October 2026
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Displaying 59 contributions

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Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

Good morning. I want to follow up the convener’s lines of questioning by focusing on the specific issue of workforce reduction in the public sector. As you will know, the Government has set a target in that respect of 0.5 per cent a year, which goes up to 4 per cent for back-office functions.

I will start with Helen Malo. I was very interested in what you said about the relative cost of delivery through hospices compared with keeping people in hospital. What are the opportunities and risks for the third sector if the public sector reduces head count? Will that mean that, potentially, more responsibilities are pushed on to the third sector? What does that mean for the third sector and its capacity to deliver and for the flow of resource coming from the public sector?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

Thank you.

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

I have one follow-up question, convener, if that is all right.

On the matter of how you would have to manage that, Mr Robertson, we heard evidence last week around how the policy of no compulsory redundancies from the Scottish Government would interact with the process of having to remove positions. There was a story in The Sunday Times at the weekend, according to which the City of Edinburgh Council currently has nine staff on the redeployment register, five of whom have been on it for more than two years, at a cost to the taxpayer of £447,000 per year. Those are individuals whose jobs have, in effect, disappeared and who are waiting to be redeployed somewhere else, but it is costing a substantial sum while they are waiting to be redeployed. We heard different views last week on the issue, but do you have any sense of the management of that reduction process and whether it could effectively be done with a no compulsory redundancy policy?

12:30

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

I simply quoted what you said in your submission, which I think is the point that you just made. It is about resource. If public service reform means that the third sector does more, how do we ensure that the resource comes with it?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

You quite deliberately used the word “if”. So, the Government has not asked you to find—

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

Thank you. I should say that I do not know that the committee is clear whether the 4 per cent back office target or indeed the broader reduction target applies to local government. Could you shed any light on that, Mr Robertson, or could you perhaps answer the original question of how achievable that is and how you would manage it?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

Good afternoon. I want to ask about staffing and head-count issues. The cabinet secretary set out a head-count reduction target of 0.5 per cent over five years. Specifically on backroom staff, we are looking at a 4 per cent reduction in the public sector. Mr McAteer, how does the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service intend to tackle that? How manageable will that be? What will be the challenges in delivering those outcomes?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

Yes, it is. I have a supplementary for Mr Robertson on the proposals in the programme for government with regard to potentially having as few as six super-regional councils. Where do you see the Borders fitting into that? Do you see it fitting in with, say, Edinburgh and the Lothians—where there is clearly a big difference between the two, with one being a big rural area and the other a city region—or do you see yourselves fitting in with Dumfries and Galloway to reflect, perhaps, the South of Scotland Enterprise area? Or would you not want to fit in with either?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

Is that not happening at the moment?

Public Service Reform Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 17 September 2026

Murdo Fraser

I will follow up on one point before I come to the other witnesses. You mentioned the Scottish Government core civil service. The figures that we have are that, in quarter 1 of 2019, the head count in core Scottish Government directorates was 6,700 and, in quarter 1 of 2026, it was up to 9,000, which is an increase of 2,300, or 34 per cent. That is a big increase in seven years. Do you know why that is? What are all those extra roles?